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WOW!Looking forward o where this discussion leads in the next 6 months.WHOA!
He has a point. The "blacks" were the formerly enslaved immigrants. The people themselves really came out of many tribal heritages, intermixed with many northern Euopeans, and with American Indians, and with Mediterannean peoples. So no more slavery point- of- view is allowed for whites and now not for darker shades of skin either. Red and yellow, black and white they're all just rqual children in God's sight. So where's my affirmative Action? I'm about 40 years behind in professor Loury's game.
Loury is always interesting.
"We're not a group, African Americans... We're not a people."We [a] People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.It doesn't quite pop the same way.
However they are defined, they vote about 90% democratic. No doubt, Mr. Emmanuel will combine his old job with his new one and make sure the census ensures a few more squiggly shape districts. Of course, not wanting to cast any doubt on the process, such as I have attempted to do, I'm sure Mr. Post Racial will abandon that idea.Holding my breath.. starting now...*gasp*
I was really intrigued by this conversation. These guys are terrifically entertaining and balanced. I would love to be in their classes.
Funny you should say that, vnjayvet. I came away thinking just the opposite. I used to find them interesting but now I find them both boring. Especially after that last BHd's with Althouse where Glenn Loury just seemed to be sort of stuck on stupid. Not saying I could do any better myself -- most people come off seeming a little dull and lackluster next to her.
Oh, Loury can most definitely say that.Not a white guy though. Anyway, we honkey cracker whities are cementing our racism into new modes, rejecting the older obvious, ugly, and insidious forms of racism, and employing instead the clandestine backdoor underground double-reverse racism of electing a black man to be President.Muuwahahahahaaaa!Racism so invisible you need our special tool to detect it!Now just $99.95 at Amazon. Buy yours through the Althouse Amazon link today!
Ann, my hat is off to you: McWhorter and Loury are stimulating, provocative conversationalists, and they don't disappoint in this instance. Thanks for linking to their discussion; I probably would have missed it had you not done so (I've been pretty busy...), and I am very glad I didn't.I forwarded the link to the entire divalog to some middle school kids I know, including my own daughter, because I think -- what am I saying! I know -- that their teachers are spoon-feeding them the same sort of sentimental, faux-liberal nonsense about Obama's election that Mr. Loury decried. I think kids would benefit from seeing this example of two black men who a) are deep, subtle thinkers whose opinions matter, b) can disagree on the subjects of race and politics, c) can do so with civility and mutual respect, and d) also hold interesting (and, at times, challenging) opinions on a wide range of other topics besides race and "urban" issues. I wish the rest of our media culture reflected as broad an understanding...
Anyone who has had even the most cursory contact with African Africans knows that African Americans very much are a people: distinctly black and American, as opposed to black and African.And (now for the controversial part) African Americans are as distinct and different from European Americans as they are from African Africans.
Glenn has spent some time in a few crack houses as a user and now he's a college professor. His brain is a bit mushy. Being a college professor will do that to the best of people. Earth to Glenn - your people voted 99% for Obama.Politically American blacks are THE MOST monolithic people in America.
Marxists try to get people to think collectively. He seems to be against that, which means he has a brain of his own (better even than a room of your own).
Meade:I should have made clear that I heard the whole thing, and there was some good stuff there. The excerpt was mostly semantic discussion over what African Americans are, which didn't particularly convince me.Glenn's point that the bulk of our citizens, black and white are abysmally ignorant of basic economics, and John's discussion of the old Booker T. Washington vs. WEB DuBois I thought were insightful and persuasively argued.
"We're not a people.""We're not?"McWhorter calls bullshit on Loury's lie.
What's the lie, ricpic? I tried listening to the whole thing but found McWhorter so FOS that I couldn't get more than a couple minutes into it and Loury never got a chance to impress or depress me.
They're both FOS but Loury's claim that American blacks are not a people is a lie. How do I know this? Because I know when I am in the midst of American blacks, as opposed to Puerto Ricans, as opposed to Lutherans of Scandinavian descent, as opposed to Jews, as opposed to Italo-Americans. All are a people.
ricpic said... Anyone who has had even the most cursory contact with African Africans knows that African Americans very much are a people: distinctly black and American, as opposed to black and African.And (now for the controversial part) African Americans are as distinct and different from European Americans as they are from African Africans.I don't see mainstream blacks as much different than mainstream whites or Asians with long roots in the USA.I do agree that the black underclass is a distinct culture and many mainstream blacks are seriously conflicted about the underclass. Don't want their kids hanging with them, don't want to live anywhere near them, fear being the victim of crimes done by the black underclass...yet also want some "solidarity, strongly support "uplift", and believe in Gov't solutions to "fix" them.
I'm a Loury fan now. "The fact that he is black is the least important part of his narrative."Like I've said before, the election of Obama shows that whites aren't racists, but almost all blacks are.
Like I've said before, the election of Obama shows that whites aren't racists, but almost all blacks are.I don't know that I agree with that, Skyler. I mean, I actually am giving thought that the 90% Obama support from blacks is more cultural than it is racial.I agree with you about Loury.
By the way, Skyler, my son is heading into the Marine Corps in the fall. 2 of my 4 brothers are former Marines. Both of my parents were Marines. My mother was a Lady Marine when she met my father; she left the service when pregnant with me. I lived on both Camp Pendleton and Parris Island as a child. I didn't enlist because I felt that I grew up in the Corps.Semper Fi.
ann,i heart this link.i hafta say..your title fooled me good...everyone knows glenn can say whatever he wants.
I used to work with blacks. When the Hmong and Mexicans and other immigrants were hired at work and moved into their neighborhoods, those same blacks spouted off with some of the most vile racial crap I had ever heard. I got the impression that they looked at immigrants as trying to get some of the affirmative action pie that had been originally been set aside for blacks.
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