January 5, 2009

Hey, did Al Franken just win?

Isn't it rich?

ADDED: "More ballots than voters."

149 comments:

Host with the Most said...

Bookmark this post and come back in just one year, please.

AJ Lynch said...

Thankfully this two month long recount was not for the Prez election. Imagine if it had been?

Jana said...

As Washingtonians know well from our experience in '06, you just need to keep looking until you find enough ballots!

Jana said...

Oops, make that '04.

It still feels so fresh.

SteveR said...

More votes than voters.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

Funny thing ...

Somehow in every one of these close elections pretty well every new vote "discovered" ends up being for the Democrat; and comes from districts where Democrats control the vote management process.

Florida 2000, Washington 2004, Minnesota 2008. There's a reason Soros and ACORN poured millions into getting people like Ritchie elected as Secretary of State in Minnesota and several other states likely to have tight elections.

I'm also old enough to remember the Daley machine stealing Illinois for JFK in back 1960, and there are many more examples, all in one direction.

Are there any documented examples of elections stolen by Republicans?

paul a'barge said...

How in the world do we get into 2009 and have the blatant theft of a US Senate seat.

Not good.

Michael_H said...

Remember when we believed out politicians were 'the best and the brightest' America had to offer? That seems long ago.

Michael said...

Blogger Host with the Most said..."Bookmark this post and come back in just one year, please."

With baited breath.


Barf - "Are there any documented examples of elections stolen by Republicans?"

2000 Bush versus Gore.

Memory course not paying off?

Michael said...

Sorry - Typo - "bated."

Although I suppose baited might be more appropriate.

Michael said...

paul a'barge said..."How in the world do we get into 2009 and have the blatant theft of a US Senate seat."

Based on what? YOUR opinion?

Michael said...

Shanna: "Purification Rundown" and "Narconon."

chuck b. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

Michael:

You don't ask for recounts in districts you win with 70% of the vote unless things are fishy.

A crushing majority of post-election "recounts" by assorted news organisations had Bush winning by even more than the certified amount, using recount methods even more favourable to Democrats than the official one -- except they applied them in every single county, instead of four Democrat-controlled counties cherry-picked ahead of time for their potential ease of manufacturing extra votes.

Keep dreamin' guy, keep dreamin'.

SteveR said...

Michael when you cite Gore v Bush 2000, you give up the right to be taken seriously, at least on the subject of stolen elections. That's up there with Vince Foster and Mena, Arkansas on the detection of stupid political myths meter.

chuck b. said...

Don't you love farts?

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

USA Today 04 April 2001:

George W. Bush would have won a hand count of Florida's disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, the first full study of the ballots reveals. Bush would have won by 1,665 votes -- more than triple his official 537-vote margin -- if every dimple, hanging chad and mark on the ballots had been counted as votes, a USA TODAY/Miami Herald/Knight Ridder study shows. The study is the first comprehensive review of the 61,195 "undervote" ballots that were at the center of Florida's disputed presidential election....


New York Times 12 November 2001 page One:

A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward.

Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

Even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff -- filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties -- Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations....


That 'consortium' included New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, CNN and AP.

Michael has established himself as a drooling hyper-partisan idiot.

Larry J said...

Barf - "Are there any documented examples of elections stolen by Republicans?"

2000 Bush versus Gore.


Preventing a theft is not a theft.

The old Democrat tactics of election stealing were used once again. Count, count, count until you "find" (manufacture) enough votes to take a lead, then demand the counting stop. More votes than voters? Details, details, details.

Michael said...

SteveR said..."Michael when you cite Gore v Bush 2000, you give up the right to be taken seriously..."

You mean when discussing the election with a right wing zealot like yourself? If the Supreme Court hadn't stepped in things may have turned out different...not that Bush & Co. haven't done a terrific job for Americans.

And we both know that damn near nobody on this blog site ever takes ANYTHING "seriously"...unless of course, they agree with what's being said.

MN has done a fine job on the recount and if there is anything wrong, the courts can deal with it...just like in 2000...right?

Michael said...

Larry - Preventing a theft?

Sure, Larry...we understand.

siyeh pass said...

Remember when we believed out politicians were 'the best and the brightest' America had to offer? That seems long ago.

...don't think that's ever been a requirement in a democracy.

Justin said...

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

Michael has established himself as a drooling hyper-partisan idiot.

And he has some strange views on dinosaurs.

Michael said...

Larry - "The old Democrat tactics of election stealing were used once again. Count, count, count..."

Yeah, that damn "counting of votes thingie" is really hard to justify.

Duh.

Michael said...

Justin - Is your tin hat wrinkled?

Dinosaurs?

Say what?

AJ Lynch said...

Are any of you satisfied with how well our elected officials have fixed our voting systems since the 2000 Florida nailbiter fiasco?

Kirby Olson said...

The Democrats should just get around to outlawing all other parties and help us get beyond this voting thing.

Just let Acorn decide directly who's going to legislate, and how the banks will be run, too.

Then it will no longer be a mystery who's calling the shots and we can dispense with polls, the long campaign season, and all the other distractions.

Michael said...

Barf: "Michael has established himself as a drooling hyper-partisan idiot."

And we ALL know being "partisan" on this blog site is out-of-the-question.

Now that is funny.

Michael said...

Kirby Olson said..."The Democrats should just get around to outlawing all other parties and help us get beyond this voting thing."

Franken won because of the "VOTES COUNTED."

And Democrats would love to outlaw the kind of Republicans we've seen over the past 8 years or so.

Are YOU satisfied with the job the Republicans, who've controlled Congress for 6 of the last 8 years and the White House for all 8, have done?

Really?

john said...

Bart said - Michael has established himself as a drooling hyper-partisan idiot.

Don't be so hard on the boy. That festering "2000 Bush versus Gore" memory is what sustained him those 8 long, cold, dark years. Turned him into what he is. It's his precious

AJ Lynch said...

Same as last year- you are still a German Valise.

chuckR said...

Bart Hall

For Republican hijinks, try:

Fraud of the Century: Rutherford B. Hayes, Samuel Tilden, and the Stolen Election of 1876

where you will find that not only was the election stolen for the Republican, the New York Times supported the theft! I guess that means they are consistent in at least one way.

AlphaLiberal said...

Que the Winger Whiners who will insist this was stolen -- because they lost.

Sore losermen and women. Again, they fight the counting of ballots, taking a very anti-democratic position.

Congratulations to Senator Elect Franken. Condolences to Norm Coleman (but he has corruption issues to contend with anyway).

Justin said...

Lucy,

My "tin hat" is quite flat. It has been stepped upon by a dinosaur.

AlphaLiberal said...

Prediction: Look now for the Senate Republicans to take a scorched earth approach on this election. There will be faux outrage, invented facts, and ignored realities.

Sen Cornyn has already primed the pump. More prediction: This will be one of their top priorities, trumping the economy.

Hope they prove me wrong!

Justin said...

I will now rephrase my last comment in the form of a haiku:

My "tin hat" is flat.
It has now been stepped upon
by a dinosaur.

Thank you.

Original Mike said...

It's his precious

:)

SteveR said...

Michael, just because you see everything through an idealogical prism and like to use name calling to demonstrate your maturity, doesn't mean people who disagree with you are "right wing zealots". I would have thought that citing Vince Foster and Mena, Arkansas would have given you a clue, not that you remember studying that in kindergarten.

Justin said...

Ignored Realities would be a good name for a band. Their first two albums could be Faux Outrage and Invented Facts.

Michael said...

Ohhhhhhhhh, Stevie...don't get so upset.

I've always wondered how Hillary carried that carpet out by herself.

knox said...

but incumbent Sen. Norm Coleman’s (R) attorneys have vowed to challenge the decision.


*sigh*

Michael said...

John - "...those 8 long, cold, dark years..."

You got that right.

What exactly do YOU like about the last eight years?

*And please...not the "we haven't been attacked again" routine again.

AlphaLiberal said...

Re: Bush v Gore:

1) The media consortia found that a statewide recount (not sought by the Gore campaign) would have led to a win by Gore. [Note that Bart Hall omitted this].

2) A huge part of the theft of the 2000 Florida Presidential votes occurred through voter suppression.

a) The voting list was wrongfully "scrubbed," removing thousands of legal (and predominantly legal) voters and denying their right to vote. The Florida Secretary of State used a Republican data firm that used a TEXAS list to remove people.

The NAACP won a lawsuit to this effect (though I think they were insufficiently ruthless and agreed to a settlement).

b) On Election Day, hundreds or perhaps thousands of African American voters were turned away from the polls. (Maybe you can find some wealthy WASPs turned away from the polls in even numbers to make your case).
------

So, now, should I start calling people names like the childish right wingers here?

john said...

I think Franken is well suited for elected office in Minnesota, and one could say it is his destiny (following the trail blazed by Jessie Ventura).

Besides, Coleman was really an embarassment.

Michael said...

Hey, I just ran across a great tip from Gwyneth Paltrow that I think fits right in with many on this blog site:

"If your bowel movements get sluggish, you can accelerate things by drinking half a cup of castor oil or using a mild herbal laxative. Bowel elimination is paramount for correct detoxification."

Good luck!!

Michael said...

AlphaLiberal - You're beating a herd of dead horses here...and you already know that.

It is fun though...they're sooooooo slowwwww...

SteveR said...

Don't flatter yourself Mikey, you are hardly worth getting upset about. Just every so often I like to challenge you because your failure to reach even the most minimal standards of discourse is amusing.

AlphaLiberal said...

Steve R:
More votes than voters.

Really? Can you elaborate? Maybe with a link?

Here are the numbers for Franken- Coleman (there were others on the ballot):
Franken at 1,212,431 votes Coleman at 1,212,206 votes
Don't know what we have for others.

And, are you comparing to registered voters or eligible voters?

Justin said...

A Herd of Dead Horses would make a good name for a ship in one of Iain M. Banks' Culture novels.

Justin said...

I apologize for the overwhelming geekiness of my last comment. It will not happen again.

AlphaLiberal said...

Michael, I just do it for the exercise. ;-)

Every now and then, though, you can make an impression. And it helps understand the mindset of the right. Hard to believe these folks had us on the run for so long. A bunch of fugitives from reality.

You can tell people have nothing to stand on when all they can do is hurl insults.

Justin said...

AlphaLiberal said...

You can tell people have nothing to stand on when all they can do is hurl insults.

All Luckyoldson does is hurl insults.

Original Mike said...

On Election Day, hundreds or perhaps thousands of African American voters were turned away from the polls.

This claim puzzles me (well, maybe not really). I watched the U.S. Civil Rights Commission hearings on the Florida election on C-Span and saw little or no evidence presented to back up this (now) ubiquitous claim.

Michael said...

Stevie: "...your failure to reach even the most minimal standards of discourse is amusing."

You call this "discourse?" 99% of the people here agree on damn near everything that fits a conservative point of view.

Original Mike: Can you explain why so many Jews supposedly voted for Buchanan in 2000? Even he says it's not possible.

Michael said...

Why are so many here whining about Franken winning?

Coleman is a complete fool and should be an embarrassment to the Republicans.

Original Mike said...

Lucky - nonresponsive.

BetaLiberal said...

Alpha! Michael! Get off the computer before mom comes home! And take your ritalin.

john said...

Michael, Alpha -

Republcans don't steal elections.

That wouldn't be right, and anyway the innate honesty of a conservative would preclude this from ever happening. If we were dishonest, we would gravitate to someone like ourselves, such as Al Gore. We would be democrats. qed

Michael - I don't have to come up with reasons to like the last 8 years of DC politics if I am going to also argue that the Dems tried to steal the 2000 election. Two different things.

(Your last post: wow, we agree about something.)

Michael said...

John: "I don't have to come up with reasons to like the last 8 years of DC politics..."

Of course not. Especially without an argument to present.

Beta-Fool...I still love the look, but what does my mother or Ritalin have to do with any of this?

Are you a little sissy-boy?

Larry J said...

Yeah, that damn "counting of votes thingie" is really hard to justify.

What part of counting more votes than voters don't you understand? The principle of honest elections is "one voter, one vote." More votes than voters mean some people's votes counted more than others. Maybe election fraud is something that doesn't bother you but it should.

AlphaLiberal said...

Original Mike:

I don't have links offhand on the work by Florida police in 2000, where they set up roadblocks, visited senior Af Ams in their homes, etc.

But some more.... From Wikipedia:

Also noted was a purge of some 50,000 alleged felons from the Florida voting rolls, which were nearly half African-American voters. The majority of these were not felons and should have been eligible to vote under Florida law.

Right there is Gore's margin. And this voter purge was conducted by the Florida Secy of State, the very disgraced Katherine Harris.

Dig into that story some more and there are some real howlers. the fact that they used a State of Texas government list (then under the control of Dubya) is a real hoot.

More on other problems, and continuing disenfranchisement of African American voters in the Deep South, here:
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

Pogo said...

From WSJ:"But it appears some officials may have failed to mark ballots as duplicates, which are now being counted in addition to the originals. This helps explain why more than 25 precincts now have more ballots than voters who signed in to vote."

More.
Ballots.
Than.
Voters.

Michael said...

John, if you think the Dems tried to steal the 2000 election, present an argument.

*Whining doesn't count.

Michael said...

Are the wingnuts here actually defending Coleman?

C'mon, he's a fool and an embarrassment...even as a Republican...and that takes some doing.

*Or, are you merely whining?

john said...

Everyone here should now move one thread up, to the Roland Burris discussion, where we can all switch sides: the conservatives can argue for seating a liberal black Democrat senator, and the liberals can argue that the sergeant-at-arms should shoot him if he tries to enter the senate chambers!

Pogo said...

"More ballots than voters" make Franken the victor.

Defend that.

AlphaLiberal said...

Here's a tepid description of the voter suppression in Florida in African American wards in 2000:

Several Florida voters reported seeing Florida Highway Patrol (FHP) troopers in and around polling places. Troopers conducted an unauthorized vehicle checkpoint within a few miles of a polling place in a predominantly African American neighborhood. In another area, trooper vehicles were reportedly parked within sight of at least two polling places, which one resident characterized as “unusual.” The FHP reported that troopers only visited polling places to vote on Election Day. In light of the high voter turnout that was expected during the 2000 presidential election, particularly among communities of color that may have a strained relationship with law enforcement, some Floridians questioned the timing of and the motivation for the FHP’s actions.

From the US Commission on Civil Rights.

There are arguments back and forth on this and I'm just not interested in digging in further, so I'll leave it at that.

Pogo said...

OT, AL.

Defend "more ballots than voters" make the democrat the winner in MN.

AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo:

I've already requested someone explain this factoid, which seems to emanate from the the Coleman camp.

Are you claiming more ballots cast than eligible or registered voters?

Where does this come from? Do you have any numbers to back up the claim?

Michael said...

Pgo: There hasn't been an election in quite some time that didn't include duplicate ballots, wrongly marked ballots, miscounted ballots, stolen ballots, etc.

Quite whining about the damn election (Obama's win, too) and move on.

You sound like a small child.

Original Mike said...

Alpha - I also don't want to reopen this (neither the time nor the inclination) but I was moved to comment specifically due to my viewing of the ERC hearing and watching the "roadblock" testimony. The "roadblock" in question was a parked cop with a radar gun located several miles away (and a couple of right-hand turns) from a polling place. There was nothing remarkable about it other than the post-election claims from partisans. Very lame.

AlphaLiberal said...

Oh, I see. The WSJ editorial page has an unsubstantiated claim up, as opinion, not fact. Well, that is not a reliable source. If you had their reporting arm, it wold be. Opinion page, uh uh.

Josh Marshall addressed this earlier today:
One point they don't mention though: the canvassing board, the outfit making all the key decisions has at least as many Republicans as Democrats, and may actually have more Republicans than Democrats. What's more almost every key decision has been made unanimously.

Secretary of State Mark Ritchie is an elected Democrat. He serves on the canvassing board automatically. For the rest he picked two Republican state Supreme Court Justices (justices appointed by Gov. Pawlenty (R)), one Independent judge appointed to the bench by former Gov. Jesse Ventura, and a fourth county judge who may be a Democrat or an Independent (we don't know because it was a non-partisan election).


Even in the WSJ rant, they say:
By some estimates this double counting has yielded Mr. Franken an additional 80 to 100 votes.

Which, even if true, would still leave Mr Franken the winner.

Pogo said...

"More ballots than voters" is "just whining" in the DNC lexicon.

Yup. Just find enough ballots, and the Democrats are happy.

AJ Lynch said...

Alpha:

For example.

Voters sign in before they vote. At the end of the voting day, the poll counts 350 voters having signed in but the final poll counts 375 ballots cast?

HTF does that happen?

AlphaLiberal said...

Original Mike:

I went to the trouble to look up and post an account that made it into the CCR report. In the case they cite, the FHP had set up a check point and were stopping traffic.

There were other reports at the time that involved visits to homes by police, etc.

The CCR report also shows a lot of other race-based problems with voting in Florida.

And, again, 1,000s were turned away because of false accusations of being felons and being removed from the voting rolls.

It would be nice to hear one conservative say "that was wrong." They don't, though, and leave the impression of being fine with such chicanery.

Pogo said...

Stay on topic, Alpha.
More.

Voters.

Than.

Ballots.



Is that good or bad?
Is that "just whining?

AlphaLiberal said...

AJ Lynch:

Is that an actual case or a hypothetical?

I've worked the polls at many elections. After the polls close, we open up the folder from the City Clerk with the absentee ballots in them and feed them through the machine as everyone watches (exciting, eh).

So ballots cast =
Voters at the polls + Absentee voters.

That's how that can legitimately happen.

Pogo, I've respectfully asked you to back up your claim. You seem unable to do that, beyond a WSJ rant.

(Yet, Althouse promotes the insinuation).

Michael said...

Pogo - Why is you and others here constantly berate the MSM for being so out of touch and dishonest, then use it to try to substantiate your opinions?

Unless of course you suddenly do not believe the WSJ is part of the vast left wing conspiracy owned and operated by the MSM.

Which is it?

Michael said...

Pogo - WHO wrote the opinion in the WSJ.

Do you even know?

garage mahal said...

As Scalia said, "Get over it". Quit whining.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo:

"Stay on topic, Alpha.
More.

Voters.

Than.

Ballots."

Well, what's the problem with that? ;-)

Coleman offices locked shut.

You're now an ex-Senator, Norm!

Palladian said...

Wow, Gene must still be on winter break. He seems to have a lot of time on his hands.

Michael said...

Pogo - Once again, since you site this as your "evidence."

WHO wrote the opinion in the WSJ.

Do you even know?

Michael said...

Palladian: Considering your weight problem, lack of artistic talents, and according to some here, your "choice" of sexuality...maybe you should consider this tip from Gwyneth:

"If your bowel movements get sluggish, you can accelerate things by drinking half a cup of castor oil or using a mild herbal laxative. Bowel elimination is paramount for correct detoxification."

Darcy said...

Pogo kicks tail (on more than one thread) with one hand tied behind his back and, uh, apparently still missing his pants. :)

Ah, well. Everyone saw this coming. Democrats "find" the votes when the system allows it.

AlphaLiberal said...

538 looks at the WSJ editorial loved by Pogo and Ann aLthouse and asks:

Did the Wall Street Journal Fire their Fact-Checkers?

The whole thing is worth a read. Key to this debate is that Coleman lawyers previously defended counting double ballots. And this:

There are 25 precincts with more ballots than voters? I'm not sure this is actually true. There were certain precincts with more votes counted during the recount than there were on Election Night -- which is not surprising, considering that the whole purpose of a hand recount is to find votes that the machine scanners missed the first time around. I have not seen any evidence, on the other hand, that there are precincts with more votes than voters as recorded on sign-in sheets. And the Coleman campaign evidently hasn't either, or it presumably would have presented it to the Court, which rejected its petition for lack of evidence.

Also, note the weasel-wordy phrase "by some estimates", which translates as "by the Coleman campaign's estimate". There is no intrinsic reason why Franken ballots are more likely to be duplicated than Coleman ballots, especially when one significant source of duplicate ballots is military absentees, a group that presumably favors the Republicans.


...and this juicy nugget:
The Canvassing Board indeed determined that it lacked the jurisidiction to handle duplicate ballots, telling Coleman that he had to go to court. Which he did. And the court threw the case out because Coleman didn't have any evidence.

Where is the evidence that Franken benefited from, counting the same ballots twice, as alleged by Ann Althouse, Pogo and others?

AlphaLiberal said...

OK, Ann Althouse and Pogo. Keep making those baseless charges. Makes you look real reliable (not)...

Coleman takes 'duplicate ballot' issue to court

QUOTE:
FLASHBACK: Email from Coleman attorney Tony Trimble (11/19):

"We believe that duplicate ballots should be counted if no corresponding original can be found, as this was a ballot cast on election night. A challenge to a duplicate ballot for which no original can be found is a frivolous challenge, because it does not relate to voter intent. Any challenge to a duplicate ballot should be made within an election contest and is not within the limited jurisdiction of an administrative recount. We will request the Minnesota State Canvassing Board to reject any challenges to duplicate ballots as groundless and frivolous (if the same are brought to the Canvassing Board)."


Maybe if you keep repeating a lie long enough....

AlphaLiberal said...

Darcy, still not letting facts or logic hamper your partisan conclusions, I see.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

A couple of minor points:

a) were Coleman not such a jerk the race would not be within the "margin of fraud" because there would not have been a Reform Party candidate who garnered so many votes.

b) the shenanigans in 1876 happened in the Electoral College, IIRC, and pertain to a disloyal elector from Louisiana (or some such)who agreed to vote Hayes (thus breaking the tie in the EC) in return for an end to Reconstruction.

Original Mike said...

It would be nice to hear one conservative say "that was wrong." They don't, though, and leave the impression of being fine with such chicanery.

But the problem here, Alpha, is I watched the testimony that the ERC used to write the paragraph you quoted and there is only a passing resemblence between the testimony and what they "concluded". So I have no reason to believe that the "chicanery" actually occurred. If I believed that the acts you say happened happened, of course I'd say it was wrong, but I saw the hearing so I have considerable doubts.

hdhouse said...

Jana said...
As Washingtonians know well from our experience in '06, you just need to keep looking until you find enough ballots!"

and as Americans well know in 2000.

Eric said...

AL:

Prediction: Look now for the Senate Republicans to take a scorched earth approach on this election. There will be faux outrage, invented facts, and ignored realities.

So, you expe3ct us to act like the Democrats of 2000? Bumper stickers saying "selected, not elected", Coleman opening speeches with "I was once the next senator of Minnesota". Stuff like that?

I doubt it. This is a replay of the Washington 2004 gubernatorial race, where the Democrats just kept finding more ballots in each recount until they had enough to win. The Republicans let it go without much protest, and I don't expect a big difference here.

Besides, Al Franken is a thoroughly unlikeable person, and a hypocrite to boot - A big government guy who doesn't pay his taxes. In the end this will probably work out better for us because we can run against him in the next three elections.

hdhouse said...

Kirby Olson said...
The Democrats should just get around to outlawing all other parties and help us get beyond this voting thing."

works for me Kirby. works for me.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

Now, as to a deeper solution to the problem, even though voting dynamics are a state concern, not federal, there should be federal legislation with real pressure behind it to accomplish something like the following:

a) all voter lists are wiped clean and everyone must register anew

b) at registration you must prove who you are, prove your citizenship (not merely declare it), and you must prove your residence in the precinct where you register

c) voter lists will be cross-checked every six months against lists of convicted felons, as well as against registrations in other states

d) to vote in the election you must prove who you are and where you live, then receive an obvious indelible mark

e) no new registrations within two weeks of the election; no more motor-voter; no more early voting except for certified poll workers

Despite Minnesota's current problems I'm convinced that optical scan is the only way to go, but is in clear need of even tighter control at the polling stations.

Finally, I suggest we adopt an excellent Canadian practice -- all employers must guarantee their workers at least four consecutive hours for voting. If the polls close at 7, they're off at 3, with normal pay, regardless of their normal quitting time.

blake said...

Bart Hall--

Regarding the 1960 election, I believe the reason Nixon didn't demand a recount in Illinois was that the Dems would've demanded a recount in California.

Original Mike said...

And to be specific about one point, Alpha, I saw NO testimony that said they had "checkpoints" and were "stopping traffic". There was one cop with a radar gun. And as a matter of fact, the paragraph you quote does not say "they were stopping traffic".

AlphaLiberal said...

Original Mike:

But the problem here, Alpha, is I watched the testimony that the ER...

Uh, mis-read. I was referring in this comment you respond to, to the scrubbing of voter rolls to remove predominantly Democratic voters. A majority of the people removed were removed wrongly.

And, above, I cited directly from the written report of the CCR (which, I guess,m we both watched). So, yes, there was at least one checkpoint. Follow the link and you'll find mitigating circumstances you could throw at me.

Beyond that, I'm backing off on that one slightly, just because my memory isn't 100% accurate and I don't have time to research it more.

To be clear, Republicans are silent on the scrubbing of the voter rolls was the real and well-documented offense. Those ballots were never counted because thousands of Floridians were never able to cast a ballot.

Palladian said...

Mr. Olson, I'd leave me alone if I were you.

AlphaLiberal said...

So, Bart, your goal is to make sure fewer eligible people vote? Because that's the outcome of your recommendations.

That is in keeping with the clear GOP goal to stop people from voting.

AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo is suddenly quiet.

No response to the fact that Coleman DEFENDED counting double ballots? He was against them before he was for them.

1876? WTF?
-----
Palladian, I think you mean Michael. And I do think his post slamming you was lame.

AlphaLiberal said...

Oops.

BArt Hall, we agree on something! Two somethings!

- Optical scan. Works in Wisconsin just fine.
- Time off for voting. YES. Or, why not vote on Saturdays?

Pastafarian said...

Bart -- I'd wager that the odds of your proposed federal legislation to tighten up on voting fraud actually passing, or even being proposed, in the next 4 years is just slightly less than the odds of the extinction of the human race from the impact of an asteroid or comet.

What we'll get instead is more money poured into organized fraud outfits like ACORN, and more laws that allow early voting, voting the same day as registering, etc.

These assholes will be dug in like ticks. The only way to beat them in any election will be to beat them by 20% or more, and that will be pretty unlikely, given their control of the media and education.

Original Mike said...

To be clear, Republicans are silent on the scrubbing of the voter rolls was the real and well-documented offense.

Well-documented? I don't know (nor do I have any way to really find out). All I DO know is the claim that I have personal knowledge of (i.e. I watched the testimony) is exagerated. It makes me suspicous of other claims from the same parties. Can you blame me?

And with that, I'm off to watch "The Story of India".

Pogo said...

From minnesotademocratsexposed:
" Original and Duplicate ballots have been double counted – even members of the Canvassing Board acknowledge this is a serious issue, yet nothing was resolved – instead, double counted votes were simply added to their recount totals.


· Newly Discovered ballots, which appeared for the first time during the recount and are included in the Canvassing Board totals without proper reconciliation to the number of voters signed into the precincts on Election Day.


· Missing Ballots supposedly tallied on election night that could not be found during the recount process are included in the Canvassing Board count contrary to Minnesota precedent.


· And again, an inconsistent treatment of challenged ballots – an inconsistent treatment of wrongfully rejected absentee ballots – and an inconsistent treatment of the campaign by the very office charged with coordinating this recount simply results in a process that is broken."



Proposed new auto license mottos:
Minnesota: the Frozen Banana Republic
MN: Land of 10,000 More Votes than Voters!
MN: 100 Ballots in Every Trunk!

Pastafarian said...

AlphaLiberal -- how is a vote not cast by a legitimate voter a greater tragedy than an illegitimate vote that cancels out a legitimate one?

You can, with a straight face, argue against Bart's legislation, because it might inconvenience someone?

How did liberalism ever come to be associated with this ACORN voter-fraud gambit, that amounts to massive DISenfranchisement of those not engaged in fraud? Did your sense of irony shrivel up and fall off sometime during the Reagan years?

I guess it just doesn't matter, as long as the right side, your side, wins. And they will, for a very, very long time. When they can get away with 200,000 fraudulent registrations in Ohio, more votes cast in Indianapolis than there are registered voters, and this Franken shit right out in the open, there's no way your side is ever going to lose a close election.

What do you suppose will happen, after about 20 years of what amounts to slavery, after the liberals have taken more and more taxes from the employed and redistribute it to their pet causes and cronies?

Universal peace and bliss? Or blood in the streets?

From Inwood said...

Pogo

More ballots than voters?

I never thought I’d see the day when Liberals were focused on outcomes rather than intentions! ☺

garage mahal said...

Pogo
Fromminnesotademocratsexposed:

Well that certainly sounds like an unbiased source for your allegation of voter fraud. Wait, wasn't that the same website that started the rumor that MN Secretary of State was a communist? Link here. Whoops, looks like he took it down! What's up with the weird wingers over by you anyways.

From Inwood said...

pogo

"count every vote" has become "some votes are more equal than others"

Pastafarian said...

Alpha -- don't waste your time, here's your rebuttal:

But Pastafarian, can you PROVE (not just substantiate, but provide an actual mathematical proof) of every contention that you've made?

Ha, I thought not. I'm right and you're wrong, we won and you lost, neeners neeners neeners. Go team, smash the capitalist pigs.

Rah rah.

From Inwood said...

pogo

Funny but recounts always show a close vote. Wouldn't want to give the game away with a Franken recount landslide!

There's only a small amount of ballots exceeding voters.

Actually, as old man Kennedy was supposed to have said "why pay for a landslide?"

Pastafarian said...

Pogo -- yes, garage is right. Mere facts are meaningless if they don't squirt from the bunghole of an impartial authority like the New York Times or MSNBC.

From Inwood said...

Re my 735: should've said "recounts which change the result of the first count in a close election always show a close result"

Pogo said...

garage,
MN has 2 papers: the Mpls Star and Sickle, and the St Paul Pioneer Press, both liberal rags. Don't count on them to do anything but cheerleading for Franken.

Moreover, they are both going out of business.
Coincidence?

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

So, Bart, your goal is to make sure fewer eligible people vote? Because that's the outcome of your recommendations.

If they can't prove they are #1 a citizen, #2 a resident of the precinct, #3 over 18, as well as #4 the person they say they are ... they are not eligible to vote.

So no, the goal to is ensure that fewer in-eligible people vote. Or, also commonly, have votes cast in their names.

On another level you're partly correct about my intentions. If a person is nominally eligible but somehow unable to prove their eligibility -- given clear rules (these are) and widespread publicity -- they are so "un-together" that I don't want them voting.

A voter turning 18 on 05 November 2008 was not eligible to vote. Too bad. (S)he didn't meet a reasonable requirement for exercise of the vote. Nothing in my proposal would constitute an un-reasonable requirement for voting.

TitusnottheeGorilla said...

It really is a pathetic year for republicans that the Minnesota senate election was even close.

garage mahal said...

Pasta
A statement by a lawyer can never be taken as "mere fact", which was what Pogo linked to. A statement by Norm Coleman's lawyer.

Pogo said...

Garage, you won't accept WSJ as a source either, so go to hell.

MN is a goddamned banana republic. Fuck them.

Titus, you buffoon, MN is a very lefty state.

AlphaLiberal said...

Original Mike:

All I DO know is the claim that I have personal knowledge of (i.e. I watched the testimony) is exagerated.

O Mike, I gave you the quote from the commission you're referring to that there was a checkpoint during Election, which you claimed was false.

But you're insinuating I have the credibility problem? Hullo?

Here are some more accounts of people being disenfranchised.. Ignore away, from the same Commission you're referring to.

On this page you can find documentation of voter roll purges that deprived thousands of (Democratic-leaning) Americans of their right to vote. See:

Again, this is the same Commission you're referring to and the report from the proceedings you cite on C-SPAN.

African American voters were placed on purge lists more often and more erroneously than Hispanic or white voters. For instance, in the state’s largest county, Miami-Dade, more than 65 percent of the names on the purge list were African Americans, who represented only 20.4 percent of the population. Hispanics were 57.4 percent of the population, but only 16.6 percent of the purge list; whites were 77.6 percent of the population but 17.6 percent of those purged.

I've never heard a Republican say "that was wrong." O Mike just rounds it out.

hdhouse said...

and with that typical display of deft Pogo wit, there you have it. In a nutshell. (pun intended)

AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo and Pastafarian:

You are not referring to "facts" in the WSJ editorial. You are referencing opinions and calling them facts.

As far as proposals to restrict access and to raise barriers to voting, it is all part of the same trend: Republicans want to make it more difficult for people to vote.

Voter ID is an example. And we just had in MO an example of a bunch of elderly nuns without drivers liceuren picture IDs.

I know, "fuck `em."

AlphaLiberal said...

Pastafarian:

don't waste your time, here's your rebuttal:

Wrong-o. Here's my rebuttal to this question:
how is a vote not cast by a legitimate voter a greater tragedy than an illegitimate vote that cancels out a legitimate one?

I don't buy your BS about "an illegitimate vote that cancels out a legitimate one." Really, few people did.

In the context of this conversation, the court considered the double ballot issue and the evidenced presented by the campaigns. And they decided you claim had no merit.

No offense, no foul.

(And, really, for you guys to cite a Wall St Journal editorial as a fact is like citing a political party's press release as a fact. Idiotic.)

Chris said...

I love this line from Silver who is by all accounts (and certainly by the account of the last election) a pretty good statistician: "The Wall Street Journal is bar none one of the best newspapers in the country ."

AlphaLiberal said...

Pastafarian:
How did liberalism ever come to be associated with this ACORN voter-fraud gambit, that amounts to massive DISenfranchisement of those not engaged in fraud?

I know people who work for ACORN. I've known of them for decades. They do good work and don't deserve the false accusation and lies about them.

They had some temp employees falsify forms, which they reported as required by law. From that you guys make up all kinds of shit and smear good-hearted people who try to help the downtrodden.

You are sowing a lot of ill will with your dishonesty and lies.

Pogo said...

AL, you bonehead, the editorial's facts are facts. Their interpretation of those facts is their opinion.

Yeah, hdhouse, it's fucking hilarious what's just happened here.

We'll end up like NJ, Ohio, Michigan and the other loony leftist states, in debt and pissing away residents, approaching bankruptcy.

We had already decided to vacate the state on retirement. Now I'll likely have to leave sooner, as I won't be able to afford to live here. That's why I say fuck them.

AlphaLiberal said...

Chris:
"The Wall Street Journal is bar none one of the best newspapers in the country ."

Wow. Stunning.

Do you know there's a difference between the news reporting and editorial section? That they are (perhaps, "were" after Murdoch took over) TWO SEPARATE OPERATIONS?

An editorial is a different thing than a news article. One is based on opinion (the editorial) and one SHOULD be based on facts (the news article).

Honestly, you guys really seem not to understand this difference, which I think I mastered before puberty.

But, please, call someone else an idiot! Ha-ha!

Joe said...

Both Coleman and Franken are dicks; they should be forced to serve together, each sharing the "in front" position.

MadisonMan said...

Of all the ex-SNL performers, I think the best senator would be Jane Curtin. But maybe only Al Franken was from MN ('tho I think Davis was too).

AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo, there is no dispute that there were ballots which did not scan that were duplicated and resubmitted.

Your allegation this typical practice represented some corrupt means for Franken is nonsense. It's a crock of shit and all you have to back your accusations is some partisan blog.

And, you ducked the point that the Coleman camp used to defend counting those votes but, now, are opposed. Hilarious.

Original George said...

You would think that eight years after the Florida chad madness, Minnesota could have gotten its act together. Shame.

If a company like Minnesota's 3M, General Mills, or Great Northern Rail had a defective product and still had not fixed it after eight years, it would be...out...of...business.

Shame on both parties in Minnesota for not preventing this debacle.

dick said...

AL,

You really need to check your knowledge on the elimination of names in FLorida in 2000. The contract was signed and sealed by the State AG, not the Sec of State, and the State AG was a Democrat.

The districts with the ballots that caused problems were Democratic districts with the ballot designed by the Democrats.

Pogo said...

Amazingly nearly all of the decisions and all of the found ballots favored Franken. Gee, how does that happen in an election that was 50-50, hmmm?

Bullshit. This is just like Washington and Ohio.

Why bother voting? The democrats will just keep finding new ways to count and exceed the actual number of voters until they get the desired result, so screw it.

MN DFL, you win. I will no longer vote. From this point on, I will simply maximize what I can extract from the state and plan where to move. Enjoy Michigan West, where businesses are leaving almost as fast as its citizens.

AlphaLiberal said...

Amazingly nearly all of the decisions and all of the found ballots favored Franken. Gee, how does that happen in an election that was 50-50, hmmm?

It's hard to imagine what the relationship between election results and judicial decisions might be.

Because, you see, election results shouldn't really affect the court decisions....
------
dick, this is the first time I've heard this arcane claim that the Florida AG signed a contract to "cleanse" the voter rolls managed by the FL Secretary of State's office. Seems to be pretty far from the typical AG's work.

Aha. Then there's this:
The State of Florida's Division of Elections was required to contract with a private entity to purge its voter file by chapter 98.0975 of the Florida statutes, which had been enacted by the Florida legislature to address voter registration fraud found during the 1997 Miami mayoral election, according to the United States Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections.
Further sites at the source.

And, still, not one conservative will say the purge of the voter rolls was wrong.

They believe ends justifies the means.

hdhouse said...

Pogo said...
:We'll end up like NJ, Ohio, Michigan and the other loony leftist states, in debt and pissing away residents, approaching bankruptcy."

Well Pogo, I for one find the idea of pissing residents approaching bankruptcy probably very painful. I would rather just piss piss, but if you can piss residents through that noodle of yours, well, more power to you.

Pogo said...

'They believe ends justifies the means.'

And your posts here clearly demostrate you believe the same.

My wife was an election judge and noticed how the Democrat judges routinely let people vote who violated the basic requirements, from not knowing their own address to having mail-in ballot signatures not match to allowing clearly retarded people 'vote' via their guardians.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
Typical Dem methods. All I get out of the deal is taxes without representation, the very issue that started our nation. Christ almighty.

Seriously, I have little or no loyalty left for this nation. We are no longer any different from the EU now. We're all just serfs beholden to a lord master.

And gee, hdhouse, your humor is just devastating. It misses the mark a bit, though, much as I said "pissing away", a common descriptor, and you had to alter the word to just "pissing" to try to make it all hahaha, and failing, but good try lad.

Theo Boehm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...

Pogo:
Seriously, I have little or no loyalty left for this nation.

That's actually not surprising to hear. I've long thought most conservatives are actually hostile to most Americans and our society and system of government. (That theme has been emerging more lately, which is great).

As someone who has been in the political wilderness for a long, long time, one can adjust. Life goes on.

Can't say I've ever passed a resident. But my brother just had kidney stones. So, I hope that doesn't run in families. Or that they're cured by beer or ice cream or something.

Pogo said...

most conservatives are actually hostile to most Americans and our society and system of government.

No, just to marxism.

AlphaLiberal said...

Ooops. Last chance to post this picture of the Hippie Norm Coleman?

Patm said...

"Boy what filthy cheats those guys are."

Each side may use in turn.

peter hoh said...

No result in this recount would make me happy. I think Minnesota voters deserve a Georgia-style runoff rule.

I would be really happy if voters had the option to reject the slate of candidates and force the parties to nominate new candidates, but that ain't gonna happen.

Original George, I'm not sure what would have prevented this debacle, what with the vote so close, but the disputes don't have to do with the method of voting used in Minnesota.

The optical scanner method we use seems pretty good to me. As far as I know, the type of ballots used are uniform across the state (unlike Florida in 2000, IIRC).

You can get a good manual recount with the paper ballots. Each vote can be examined, which you don't get with the electronic methods.

There is still room for voter error, but at least there's no hanging chad nonsense. It's pretty hard to screw up the Minnesota ballot, though plenty of voters did, with their double marking and writing in "Lizard People" and what not.

hdhouse said...

ohhh Pogo, you little putz you! You don't like my humor. I'm hurt.

And after you write post after post full off nonsense and no sense sentences that roll of a psychotic tongue like rocks tumble uphill.

For years now you have given us so much "easy pickings" that we should owe you a debt of gratitude. Oh that nimble mind at work!

Meade said...

"Hey, did Al Franken just win?

Isn't it rich?"


Are we not a pair? Me here at last grounded in my green pants, you arse over tea-kettle in that icy Madison weather.

Pogo said...

Well, hdhouse, you and your liberal friends have laid waste to multiple states , all dying because of social democratic methods. Michigan, Ohio, New Jersey. Now they are sending California into bankruptcy and very soon New York (again.)

And nowe you're hell-bent on fucking up Minnesota in exactly the same way.

You and other DNC types apparently find this a real hoot. But little guys like me do most of the living and dying in these states, and you assholes have gone and General Shermaned your way through the economic bases of state after state, killing them for decades.

Now you stand poised to do so to the country at large. To accomplish this, you adopted Saul Alinsky tactics, including now theft of elections in Washington and Minnesota (which are now no better than Chicago and Louisiana), and our very own Alinsky President.

So go to hell, house.
What you find hilarious I have to live in and work in. And dipshits like you think it's great and wondrous to take over half my income to fund whatever the hell you think is good for me.

So pardon me if I say go screw, you ten cent cut-and-paste state-worshipping lefty lemming.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Kirby Olson said...
The Democrats should just get around to outlawing all other parties and help us get beyond this voting thing."

hdhouse said: works for me Kirby. works for me.


I always knew you were a fascist. Never thought you had the balls to admit it though. At least you're honest.

Pogo said...

"no sense sentences that roll of a psychotic tongue like rocks tumble uphill."

What the hell?
Does this mean anything at all?
Do rocks tumble uphill? No? Is that the imagery, then, speech like rocks not tumbling? What then?
A sentence rolls of the tongue like rocks against gravity?
I do not get it, at all.

Goddamnit hdhouse, if you can't be good at economics, at least be good at English, so I can better understand what ideology poisons your lefty mind sufficiently to condone the abasement of voting and the penury of state after state, and still think yourself virtuous.

For I find it a mystery, unless Hoosier is right, and it is mere liberal fascism that makes your spindly leg tingle.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well Pogo when hdhouse thinks it's dandy to elminate all other political parties and get rid of voting I'd say that pretty much sums up his ideology.

I won't go so far to say that he'd favor gulags and re-education camps for dissident conservatives but I don't think its much of a stretch.

AJ Lynch said...

Pogo brings up a growing trend.
We truly are involved in an epic struggle between tax payers vs. tax consumers.

Many states and large cities have been bankrupting their residents by providing exorbitant pensions, excessive spending etc.

It will become more and more common for workers and those with significant assets to abandon those bankrupt locales for places that are more fiscally responsible.

IOW, last one out of Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, please turn off the lights!

I predict some states and maybe even Obama will soon levy a tax on your assets!

Shanna said...

As far as proposals to restrict access and to raise barriers to voting, it is all part of the same trend: Republicans want to make it more difficult for people to vote.

Voter ID is an example.


Come on! How hard is it to get an ID? You have to have an id to work, to drive, to do all sorts of things. Hell, in Arkansas you can vote with your hunting license and your Sam’s card.

And, still, not one conservative will say the purge of the voter rolls was wrong.

Well, I think it’s a shame that we can’t seem to get our act together on elections, and voting rolls and id’s and fraud are all part of the same problem. I don’t know enough about the particular issues, except to say that databases are a pita to keep clean and that anyone working on a voter db should work extra hard to make sure it’s right. I am not inclined to consider that a conspiracy to defraud unless I hear some very convincing evidence, but I can well believe that somebody did a crappy job and shouldn’t be hired for that kind of work again, if that’s the case.

As for the individuals, isn’t this the whole point of provisional ballots? You cast a provisional ballot and then you get the story straight and it gets counted if it is? There should definitely be a way to vote if you are mistakenly left off a list, but I thought that was the way to do it.

hdhouse said...

Pogo.....

was it something I said?