October 1, 2008

Sarah Palin on prayer and homosexuality. (And I find a blunder in the CBS transcript.)

From Couric's interview with Sarah Palin:
Couric: Your church sponsored a conference that claimed to be able to convert gays into heterosexuals through prayer. Do you think that gays can be converted, governor?

Palin: Well, you're absolutely wrong, again, on the facts. My church, I don't have a church, I'm not a member of any church. I get to visit a couple of churches in Alaska when I'm home, including one, Wasilla Bible Church, and that's the one that you're talking about.

Couric: Right. I think James Dobson's group … had a convention or a meeting there. And your church…

Palin: No, I think they …

Couric: …supported it.

Palin: The Wasilla Bible Church had a flyer that was part of a bulletin or something …

Couric: But you know what? That doesn't even matter. Let me just ask you the question.

Palin: Well, it matters, though, because, Katie, when the media gets it wrong, it frustrates Americans who are just trying to get the facts and be able to make up their mind on, about a person's values. So it does matter …

Couric: … you're correcting us.

Palin: But you are talking about, I think, a value here, what my position is on homosexuality and can you pray it away 'cause I think that was the title that was listed in that bulletin.
It seems obvious to me that it should have been transcribed: "what my position is on homosexuality and 'Can You Pray It Away?'"

Palin is referring to the title of a program that was listed in a church bulletin. Not transcribing it as a title, in quotes, makes it seem as though she might be expressing an opinion. Indeed, that original transcript flaw seems to have led a copy editor to make it into a much worse blunder.

Look at the CBS article reporting on the interview with excerpts from the interview:
But what you're talking about, I think, value here, what my position is on homosexuality and you can pray it away, because I think that was the title that was listed on that bulletin.
See that? "[M]y position is on homosexuality and you can pray it away...." It's not a question anymore! "Can you" has become "you can," and not presenting it in title form makes it seem as though she might be expressing the opinion you can pray it away.

The video clip with the article does not include that line, so it's very unlikely many readers will notice the way the words got rearranged, and I think many will read that as an initial statement that you can pray homosexuality away.

Back to the original transcript, as she goes on to refuse to say what she thinks about the power of prayer and sexual orientation:
And, you know, I don't know what prayers are worthy of being prayed. And I don't know what prayers are gonna be answered or not answered. But as for homosexuality, I am not going to judge Americans and the decisions that they make in their adult personal relationships. I have, one of my absolute best friends for the last 30 years who happens to be gay. And I love her dearly. And she is not my "gay friend." She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made. But I am not gonna judge people. And I love America where we are more tolerant than other countries are. And are more accepting of some of these choices that sometimes people want to believe reflects solely on an individual's values or not. Homosexuality, I am not gonna judge people.
This seems to reflect good Christian values. I hear the echo of Jesus's words: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" and "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

Now, Palin does speak of choice: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made." Does that mean she thinks sexual orientation is a choice? It could simply mean that the friend has chosen to act in accordance with her sexual orientation. Oddly, that interpretation would mean -- if we apply logic -- that Palin too has a homosexual orientation. Settle down. Think about it.

If Palin believes sexual orientation is not a choice, then she should have said: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice I have had to make." If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice.

155 comments:

Arturius said...

I'm perplexed at why someone's belief that homosexuality can be prayed away or is a personal choice is of more note or concern than their inherent belief that 2000 years ago some guy turned water into wine, walked on water and came back from the dead.

To put it another way, its like overlooking the fact that somone believes in the Loch Ness Monster but think they're crazy because they claim they saw Bigfoot.

Triangle Man said...

'cause I think that was the title that was listed in that bulletin.

It may be a technical error in the transcription, but it seems obvious to me that she was referring to the title of the workshop (or whatever it was). It seems immaterial if the title was actually "you can..." or "can you...". The underlying question is, what does she think about homosexuality.

Of greater interest, however, is her statement that she is not a member of any church.

chickenlittle said...

I'm glad Couric's ratings are sliding.

Kevin said...

I am gay-friendly and I consider the argument that homosexuality is a biological switch to be very far from proven. It may yet be proven, but whatever case exists now falls under the heading of "PC science".

So yes, if Sarah Palin believes that homosexuality is a choice, then her argument is consistent.

Rich Beckman said...

"And I love America where we are more tolerant than other countries are."

Well, than SOME other countries are.

But more tolerant than ALL other countries?

Mixalhs said...

Wait, so Palin's gay?

I knew it: Moose-hunting, guns, and high school basketball. I mean, the signs were there.

[I choose to believe that Palin is an artful linguist and grammar maven, so there is no way she misspoke. Conclusion: She's gay. You heard it here on Althouse first!]

Rich B said...

Sarah should ask Obamuh for advice. He knows how to deflect close textual analysis of his utterances.

Dark Eden said...

Wow some people will go pretty far out of their way to be offended by Sarah's 'dangerous christianity'

Terry said...

Fer Gawd sakes is it possible I am the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD who thinks some gay people may be gay by choice and others may not be gay by choice?

Mixalhs said...

Kevin,

The options aren't just "choice" versus "biological." If somone's "nurture" over decades has made them "gay," it doesn't mean it's a choice. It's not like something they can switch off and on. Even if you believe that being gay is some sort of disease or mental illness, you wouldn't exactly use the word "choice" to describe that.

Put another way, we don't say that manic depressants or cancer victims chose to be that way, even though they weren't born that way.

Lorelei Leigh said...

I think it's probably impossible that Sarah Palin believes homosexuality is anything other than a choice, and I do think that her words bear that out.

Then again, it could be an issue that she struggles with, especially if that statement about her best friend is true. This statements seems much more coherent than the rest, so perhaps this is an issue she has thought some about. It is probably hard for her to reconcile her religious belief that homosexuality is a choice with the fact that her friend is gay.

Mixalhs said...

Terry,

No. Some people agree with that. The converse is that some straight people may be born that way and others choose to be that way. I would speculate that this is much more common.

Beldar said...

Correcting transcript errors: Good.

Second-guessing meanings from grammar implications: Amusing, but silly.

Mixalhs said...

What people don't get is not everyone has a clear-cut belief on this issue. Maybe she doesn't give it much thought. Maybe it doesn't apply to her, so she just doesn't really think about it. I think that's the case with most straight people.

Triangle Man said...

some gay people may be gay by choice and others may not be gay by choice

Some? Perhaps. How many? Ten?

Kevin said...

Mixalhs:

I emphatically do not believe that being gay is some kind of disease or mental illness. I subscribe to the libertarian philosophy of "live and let live".

What I am saying is that there is little credible science that proves that homosexuality is not a choice. What science does exists seems designed to prove a talking point: that because gay people cannot choose their orientation, they are entitled to deference to their lifestyle.

I am sympathetic to their choice of lifestyle in the first place, because I believe it is none of anyone else's business. What is misleading is to try to drag science into a political debate. Moreover, it can have unintended consequences. Let us imagine an entirely plausible scenario where the existence of a certain gene is linked to a 90% chance of a child growing up gay. This gene can be tested for during pregnancy. I suspect that most potentially-gay fetuses would suffer the fate of Down's Syndrome children. Scientists working in this field should be careful what they wish for - they may get it.

Ron said...

The text on your link says "From Palin's interview with Sarah Palin".

I assume you mean Couric, yes?

UWS guy said...

Now that Palin and her strategerists have pinned their hopes on the "gotcha journalists" I predict Sarah Palin will perform an, "I paid for this microphone mr. so-and-so."

She will verbally admonish one of the moderators, mark my words.

mcg said...

Maybe the choice Sarah Palin was referring to was her best friend's haircut. Because some of them are just dead giveaways.

Dark Eden said...

Palin thinks gays should be treated equally and with tolerance but she may or may not think that being gay is a choice and not biological? Maybe?

THAT'S IT EXECUTE THE CHRISTIANIST!!!11!!!

There's bigotry at work here but its not on Palin's part. Its the only bigotry that is totally acceptable and even encouraged by our moral betters on the left: bigotry against christians.

madawaskan said...

Actually it's the shoes....

Her friends shoes are

tragic.

madawaskan said...

Oh and speaking of choice- Palin does go all the way doesn't she?

I mean she made a choice to not be gay by FIVE kids...

That my friends takes dedication.

TMink said...

One point on this issue is that we Christians are a people of The Book. We even capitalize it because we revere and hold our scripture as holy. So when the New and Old Testaments clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin we are stuck with it. Oh sure, we can deny our Book, but then we are not the people of the Book.

Having said that our Book states unequivocally that homosexual behavior is a sin, it does not say that being "gay" is a sin anywhere. The Bible is strict about sex, ask Jimmy Carter!

And I control my sexual impulses and desires every day. So do you! I am commanded to have sex only with my wife and that goes against the aspects or my personality that want to screw around.

So I pray to be faithful to my wife because the alternative would hurt her and displease the supreme being of the universe. Bad on both counts.

To follow up on another thread: I agree that very few people chose to be gay, but everyone who is not raped chooses whether or not to have sex. So what is wrong about praying to make a good choice?

Clearly what is wrong is that the gay agenda has been based on their contention that "they cannot help it." I tend to agree about the attraction, but not about the choice of behavior. Folks who say that they were gay but were "delivered from sin" are completely contrary to the I can't help it crowd and are thus quite threatening.

People have asked me to "fix" their orientation. I always tell them that the research suggests that a particular attraction is a difficult if not impossible thing to change, but that I would be happy to support them and listen to them as they deal with their life and attractions.

Of course the APA would kick me out for doing that!

Trey

Trooper York said...

Titus Surfaces in New York City
(New York Post, October 1, 2008)

Talk about a flaming come-on!

A weirdo tried to find a hot time at an Upper East Side firehouse Sunday by tiptoeing into the building, waking up a groggy battalion chief - and demanding gay sex, according to court records.

"Don't worry, I'm not going to hurt you," suspect Eric Farr, 33, allegedly told the firefighter. "I'm just going to f- - - you. I'm so horny!"

After he woke up the room with his desperate bid for some blazing man-on-fireman action, the firefighters grabbed him and held him until police arrived.

Farr, who has a string of prior arrests, walked into Ladder Co. 13/ Engine Co. 22, on 85th between Third and Lex, at about 6 a.m.

He went up to the second floor room, where Battalion Chief Christopher Lennon and 13 other firefighters were asleep, according to court records.

Cops took Farr down to the 19th Precinct station house, where he was charged with second-degree burglary and an attempted criminal-sexual act in the first degree, according to court records.

He was then locked in a holding cell.

But that was not the end of Farr's day of lasciviousness. While cooling his heels in the clink, Farr allegedly took the opportunity to strike up a conversation with fellow accused criminal, Javier Alderete, 28, of Queens, who was in for a DUI rap.

One thing led to another, the stars aligned, and Farr performed a sex act on Alderete in the cell, according to the criminal complaint.

They broke it up only when an officer arrived, the complaint said.

Farr was eventually released on $5,000 bail.

When reached at his home on East 85th Street, Farr didn't have much to say: "As far as I'm concerned, nothing [happened]," he said, before slamming a door.

Farr's neighbors were stunned by the allegations.

A man in the building said, "This is extremely out of character for him. He was never intimidating or aggressive."

"I mean, who's he kidding? But it's New York, and absurd things happen."

Trooper York said...

Absolutely true story on the website today. Thank God Titus is keeping busy.

kentuckyliz said...

Hairstyles aren't always a choice. When I first unveiled with extremely short hair (regrowth after chemo), a friend said, "Nice lesbian haircut, Liz." LOL

I've had long hair all my adult life. I'm kinda liking the short hair. But that doesn't mean I'm about to start munching carpet.

You've missed the much bigger message of this quote:

SARAH PALIN IS PRO CHOICE!!!

erniecu73 said...

I don't think homosecuality for me was a choice. I also understand that there are people who believe it was. I don't agree with them on that issue, but I always appreciate when they treat me fairly, and that is really like they treat everyone else.

MadisonMan said...

She's gay? I read (in the National Enquirer) that she's having an affair with her husband's friend. Husband's male friend.

That is serious denial! Or Madawaskan is right: serious dedication!

TMink said...

One point left out of the discussion about choice and sexuality concerns abuse survivors. I bet one third of the gay men and women I work with had their heterosexuality stolen from them by child sexual abuse.

It is difficult to get all excited about getting sexual with someone who reminds you of being raped as a child. The other side of that coin lies in the gay guys who tell me about learning that they were gay when they were 12 and their neighbor who was 30 "showed them."

Trey

UWS guy said...

Tmink 36.4% of all statistics on the internets are made up on the spot.

erniecu73 said...

Professor, could you please edit my previous post. I can't type today to save my life.

Thanks.

MadisonMan said...

trooper, if that really were titus, rare clumbers would be involved.

William said...

Socrates and Anne Heche were apparently gay by choice. Your sexuality is co-terminous with your culture. Some behaviors are encouraged; others are repressed. It is quite possible to be attracted to your wife's younger, cuter sister, but if you share that thought with your wife, much less act on it, your marriage will suffer. Sadly, only in porno films will she suggest a threesome. Civilization depends on a certain amount of frustration.....We are moving towards greater tolerance of gay behavior but that just means that gays will have to hide something else in the closet the way heterosexuals do. The closet is a dark and private place and none I think do there embrace.

Trooper York said...

Funny you should say that, but there is a doggy day care right next door to the firehouse. Ya think?

Trooper York said...

Gives new meaning to the term "Fire in the hole."

madawaskan said...

MadisonMan-

I read (in the National Enquirer) that she's having an affair with her husband's friend. Husband's male friend.

The evidence mounts...

{wait, have I got the right tense on that-I'm so confused but not in an oriented way...}

Lorelei Leigh said...

And I love America where we are more tolerant than other countries are. And are more accepting of some of these choices that sometimes people want to believe reflects solely on an individual's values or not.

This is actually an interesting statement. Is she saying that, unlike some people, she, as an American, doesn't believe that a person's "choice" to be homosexual (or engage in homosexual behavior) reflects on their individual values?

If that's really what she means, I'm intrigued by it. That would make her a lot more palatable than many on the religious right.

madawaskan said...

Look they left their hose out.

They were asking for " it".

{Actually I think titus is doing those new Calvin Klein commercials-Release Your Beast...}

Trooper York said...

The headline on the story was:

"FLAMER AFTER 'HOSE'"

Trooper York said...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

madawaskan said...

Seriously?

I gotta take a look at that.

The New York Post eh?

I'm off.

Kirby Olson said...

Most Christians do think that homosexuality is a choice.

Most homosexuals believe that Christianity is a choice.

What if neither one is a choice, what if it's genetic?

Then, is your vote really a choice?

BJK said...

If Palin believes sexual orientation is not a choice, then she should have said: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice I have had to make." If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice.

OR, Gov. Palin could be asserting that EVERY individual makes a choice whether to live their lives as heterosexual or homosexual, and her friend's choice was different than the one she herself made.

I understand the point you're attempting to make about choice, Ann, but I think you're framing the choice incorrectly.

Methadras said...

The only reason I came into this thread is to see if Michael came in here to talk about Sarah Palin seeing pictures of human foot tracks that try to convert gay dinosaurs from being gay.

Methadras said...

Trooper York said...

Gives new meaning to the term "Fire in the hole."


I'm sure DTL could give a blow by blow.

erniecu73 said...

Methadras said...
The only reason I came into this thread is to see if Michael came in here to talk about Sarah Palin seeing pictures of human foot tracks that try to convert gay dinosaurs from being gay.

11:29 AM


You win!

Trooper York said...

I just thought that was a really funny story. Imagine being so horny you just walk into a building and demanding sex. I mean the last person I heard about that did that was Bill Clinton.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

Who cares what she thinks about anything?

She's proven to me, over and over again, that she is uninterested and/or uninformed about most national and international issues, so why should we care what she thinks about gays? She could say that lesbians were actually squirrels dressed up in giant human costumes and all I would do is shrug.

chuck b. said...

"Most homosexuals believe that Christianity is a choice."

Thank you for pointing that out. I certainly believe it--having faith, by definition, is a choice one makes--and I have tried to point it out many times.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

In the real world, I believe people's sexual orientation can fall into various points along a broad spectrum. In the political world, its a binary choice. This false choice leaves little opportunity for rational dicsussion.

Peter V. Bella said...

In the grand scheme of things is her opinion on homosexuality really that important? Or is the media looking for something else to slam her on?

Trooper York said...

Udder Madness
(New York Post, September 30, 2008)
Holy cow, this Ohio woman is an udder disgrace!

Michele Allen, 32, will spend the next month in jail after admitting to a wild drunken weekend dressed in this silly cow outfit, said Middletown, Ohio, authorities.

"Michele is pretty well known to us. She's 'struggled,' to say the least," Middletown Municipal Court Judge Mark Wall told The Post.

Wall sentenced Allen to 30 days in jail for her oddball escapade.

She had been hired to wear the outfit to advertise for a local "haunted trail" theme park.

While at work Saturday evening, Allen hit the sauce hard and then stumbled into the streets - blocking traffic and chasing kids, said Police Major Mark Hoffman.

Allen also urinated in a nearby yard during the drunken grazing, cops said.

"It's curious. When I think of Halloween or a haunted trail, I don't think of cows as being scary - although this one was," Hoffman said.

As cops hauled her away, the haunted trail's manager snatched the cow mask away from Allen, but officers let her keep the rest of the outfit.

"It appeared that's all she had on," Hoffman said.

Allen dried out in jail over the weekend - all the while wearing the cow costume.

Jail policy allows for inmates to wear prison garb in the clink, but only after a defendant's first court appearance.

Despite having two nights to sober up, Allen was in a foul mood Monday, yelling at jailers.

"She was challenging people to 'suck her udders,' " Hoffman said. "I'm not joking."

Once Allen arrived in court, she grazed peacefully, Judge Wall said.

She waived her right to a lawyer and pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct.

Allen has been in trouble before. She has an outstanding "failure to appear on a solicitation" rap and still owes $2,733 on that offense.

"I gave her the maximum [30 days] because I think she's more a danger to herself than the community," Wall said.

Two publicly listed phone numbers for Allen were disconnected, and no family member could be reached for comment.

The judge said facing a cow-dressed defendant was new for him.

"We get people dressed in various attire when they're in court," he said. "But this was a first, someone dressed as a cow."

The Exalted said...

notice her inability to give a straight answer

first some distractions on what church she "belongs" to, then throwing her hands up on "i dont know what prayers get answered," meaning, in her view, its possible that one could pray to have another's sexual orientation changed.

she is v. good at one thing: meaningless gibber jabber

Hoosier Daddy said...

She's proven to me, over and over again, that she is uninterested and/or uninformed about most national and international issues, so why should we care what she thinks about gays?

Zach, do you place Biden under the same kind of scrutiny as well? Evidently, despite being at the forefront of the debate on Iraq, Joe once again proved he was on the wrong side of the equation helping lead the charge to Bagdhad. Interesting that Obama being a vehement opponent would have chosen him as his VP. Palin may be uninformed but Joe being the foreign policy expert he is, was informed and still made the wrong call even when The One knew it was.

Or is being wrong still ok as long as he's your guy?

Just looking for some consistency is all.

Lawgiver said...

ZPS says,

Who cares what she thinks about anything?

Well that's a dopey question.

Terry said...

I just prayed to change someone's sexual orientation! Sarah Palin is right! It CAN be done!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So she thinks that being homosexual is a choice? or maybe not.

Who cares what she thinks about this issue. It has no affect or effect either on the position of being Vice President.

Maybe homosexuality is a choice, maybe it is biological. /shrug Maybe the choice being made is to act in a particular way. You can choose celebicy and become a nun or to be a huge whore screwing 10 guys a night.

Who cares.

Why don't they ask some meaningful questions?

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

I think think we need to take a closer look at all the candidate's religious beliefs and associations. Maybe CBS will reopen the discussion on Obama's church as well.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Why don't they ask some meaningful questions?


You're kidding. Don't be surprised on Friday if Palin is asked what her thoughts are on Maybury vs. Madison while Biden is queried on what his favorite color is.

sonicfrog said...

She could say that lesbians were actually squirrels dressed up in giant human costumes and all I would do is shrug.

They're not? Crap! Next you'll tell me Santa doesn't exist.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I mean Thursday. I had Friday on my mind because it's pub crawl day for me.

Elliott A said...

Is the terrible condition of liberalism a choice, or biological? My sister is afflicted and there is no hope of recovery

Apathetic Citizen said...

Hilarious article in today's Wall St. J. about how Palin demolishes debate opponents....

"Asked what jobs she might have in her administration for either opposing candidate, she chuckled that former Gov. Knowles could be her official chef, while Mr. Halcro would be Alaska's top statistician.

"It was a witty answer, and funny," recalls Larry Persily, the Anchorage Daily News editor who posed the question at a debate broadcast on the state's public television network. "But it was also a put-down. Everyone knows Tony used to own a restaurant called Downtown Deli, and she was suggesting he should go back to running a lunch counter. With Andrew, she was saying, basically, 'Gee, all your facts and numbers are nice, but the voters just don't care.'"

She's going to cut Biden's balls off and make him laugh while she does it.

Trooper York said...

Does that mean she is going to ask Biden to be the White House barber?

ricpic said...

Anything less than total submission to the wonderful wonderfulness of homosexuals is, you guessed it, homophobia.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

Or is being wrong still ok as long as he's your guy?

First, Biden is not my guy.

Second, I don't compare Biden's stance on Iraq to Palin's lack of interest or knowledge. Biden only went along with Iraq (like everyone else) because it was politically popular at the time. I wouldn't call him "wrong" as much as I would unprincipled and a coward.

Third, let's just say that I'll be voting for the candidates who I believe are less wrong on the issues.

Elliott A said...

In the early days, Biden was screaming for more troops! He wanted at least another 50000. He was for the surge before McCain was. He was on Imus every other day hollering about it. His current position is far from what he really thinks.

Pogo said...

The point of talking about Sarah palin on prayer and on homosexuality is to reiterate the MSM-Democratic Party liberal themes.

We get it, NBC.ABC.PBS.MSNBC.CNN.NYTimes, you hate Palin. She is 'not one of us'; she is unclean, apostate, un-PC,....ack!!.... religious. Untouchable! She must be rejected.

Yes, yes yes. I understand.
So begins the single party State. Everything for the Party. Nothing outside the Party.

I hope y'all are getting the message: it isn't just mere disagreement regarding 'prayer' or on gay this or that, it's a declaration: certain points of view are forbidden.

Such is the case already in Canada, where even religious sermons are forbidden to speak against homosexuality. Canada's kangarooo court for "Human Rights" exists for this very reason.

We will have our own show trials soon enough.

All will be sacrificed to the Party. Disagreement is not allowed.

erniecu73 said...

I demand the opinion of Товарич ПОССУМ!

Elliott A said...

Resistance is futile

CarmelaMotto said...

What people seem to miss is that what she is saying in that one of her best friends happens to be gay meaning, but that it makes no difference to her. She doesn't give a hoot.

I think she meant it as they choose to live their lives or come out so to speak, as a gay person. Other people don't (or choose not to live openly or comepletely deny it).

Hoosier Daddy said...

First, Biden is not my guy.

Well actually, Zach, he is, assuming of course you still plan on voting for Obama. It's a package deal you see.

Second, I don't compare Biden's stance on Iraq to Palin's lack of interest or knowledge. Biden only went along with Iraq (like everyone else) because it was politically popular at the time. I wouldn't call him "wrong" as much as I would unprincipled and a coward.

I see. So Plain is uninformed but you have no problem with a 'unprincipled coward' one heartbeat away from the Presidency? Oh and not 'everyone else' went along with Iraq. There were plenty of naysayers in Congress.

Third, let's just say that I'll be voting for the candidates who I believe are less wrong on the issues.

Fair enough but as you said, it wasn't about being wrong but being an unprincipled coward. McCain may have been wrong on the war but you certainly can't question his principles. He clearly stated that he'd rather lose the election than the war. Biden on the other hand expressed his mea culpa as soon as it was politically expedient for him to do so.

Thanks but I'll take uninformed over Biden any day. You can always be educated but your principles define who you are and as you admitted, Biden showed us his.

Fred4Pres said...

I suppose we could go the Howard Stern route and start thinking about Governor Palin and Katie Couric making such a "choice" during the interview and then acting on it...but we best leave that to Howard Stern.

I do not believe all homosexuality is a choice or that the orientation can be prayed away, but obviously not all homosexual behavior is orientation. It happens in prisons, same sex bording schools, the Navy (ask any Marine, they will tell you most sailors are gay), etc. and not everyone who participates in such things go on to be predominently gay (well maybe those sailors). Isn't that a choice? There is a degree of some fluidity in sexuality that seems to be controlled by choice.

I believe some people are predominately oriented homosexual and should be treated with respect. Sarah Palin apparently believes gay persons should be treated with respect and said exactly that to Katie. But how someone with that orientation expresses themselves sexually is certainly a choice.

Frankly this parsing of words of Palin that the MSM is engaged in is a witch hunt. Perhaps that African minister should be called back to pray about protecting Palin from witch hunts!

holdfast said...

I will admit that I do not understand why the Dems/MSM (same thing - thanks Gwen!) want to keep pushing the issue of whacky churches. It is just a giant invitation to air all those Jeremiah Wright vids for any moderates who weren't paying attention during the primaries.

I think that prayers to avoid witchcraft are odd and funny, but it was a a visiting minister from Africa. I think that belonging to a church for 20 years where the sermons include "God Damn America" etc is an automatic moral disqualification to be President. Let's see if the bitter god-clingers in in Pennsylvania and Ohio agree.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

You can always be educated but your principles define who you are and as you admitted, Biden showed us his.

Yes but you don't understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather have someone, like Biden, who knows what it is right but plays the game despite his principles than someone who is wrong simply because they are WRONG.

It's the lesser of two evils, for me.

Synova said...

Palin: Well, you're absolutely wrong, again, on the facts.

Couric: But you know what? That doesn't even matter. Let me just ask you the question.

So funny.

The answer, of course, is that God can perform miracles. He could make a limb grow back if He chose to do so. If God answers prayer and brings a person through cancer or, as a missionary's kid I went to school with testified, cured an always deadly snake-bite... he can certainly answer any prayer.

And Couric has to know this. Why not ask Obama, who claims to be a Christian if he believes that God performs miracles, yes or no, and then ask him if he says "yes"... ask him if gays can be converted through prayer.

He'd say something about how it's important to be tolerant of people and how he's not going to judge them.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Yes but you don't understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather have someone, like Biden, who knows what it is right but plays the game despite his principles than someone who is wrong simply because they are WRONG.

Evidently I didn't understand. Is Palin wrong about a specific item, such as she believes 2+2=8237 or simply wrong because she holds a different point of view than yourself? Cause there is a difference.

Personally I value principles over gamemanship. Your preference for someone who 'plays the game' certainly does strike me as someone who also believes in the Hope & Change meme.

Hoosier Daddy said...

edit I mean certainly does not

gregq said...

Ann,

The friend choses to sleep with other women. Aplin does not. The friend has therefore made a choice that Palin hasn't.

If you actually want to understand what someone is saying, it helps to start with the logical explanation, rather than the one that requires a somersault and two full twists to get to.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

I never "believed" in the Hope and Change, so, whatever.

And you brought up the "wrong" label when all I said was "who cares what she thinks about anything." So you brought it into wrong vs. right on Iraq and Biden, and for the record, if Palin supported the war, like Biden, she was wrong according to me.

mcg said...

Maybe the choice that Sarah Palin was referring to was the car she drives. I'm betting her best friend's ride is a Subaru.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I never "believed" in the Hope and Change, so, whatever.

Ok.

And you brought up the "wrong" label when all I said was "who cares what she thinks about anything." So you brought it into wrong vs. right on Iraq and Biden, and for the record, if Palin supported the war, like Biden, she was wrong according to me.

Ok, fair enough. I'm not trying to be a dick but I suspect your motivation for voting is less about right, wrong or principles but Democrat vs GOP.

Our Governor has balanced the budget, completely overhauled our child protective services and has gotten funding to provide health care for uninsured kids in Indiana yet two of my co-workers think he's somewhere between Satan and the Grinch solely because he's Republican.

Harsh Pencil said...

The same people who think that you're either hard wired to be gay or straight tend to think whether you're male or female is a choice. (Do I get that operation or not?)

What a wonderful world.

Methadras said...

Zachary Paul Sire said...

She could say that lesbians were actually squirrels dressed up in giant human costumes and all I would do is shrug.


So you are right about furries. Man, I always wondered about you.

Trooper York said...

Rocky was always very comfortable around Bullwinkle’s homosexual antics. It was a very enlightened attitude for an early sixties squirrel. But it was only because of his personal history. You see Rocky was rasied by his mother in New Orleans where she was a english professor who lived with her lesbian lover in the “French” quarter. Rocky had two mommies. He loved and respected his mom but he did joke around a lot. When she visited the set he introduced her as a cunning english professor. He did finally become estranged from his mom when she became a New Orleans Saints fan. As he said to me “If you are really gonna be squirrelly you have to be a Cowboy fan.”
(Jay Ward and Alex Anderson, Rocky and Bulwinkle, E True Hollywood Story)

Apathetic Citizen said...

The Bible speaks to this topic.

Ezekiel 23:20.

That's all I need to know on the subject. You read it, and you think on it.

Synova said...

Haha... I think that's probably one of the parts my Sunday School teachers carefully skipped.

I skimmed (heh) but didn't notice anything about homosexuality... the whole thing seemed to be sexual allegory for what is given away when nations try too hard to accommodate their neighbors and gain favor at the expense of what's right.

Apathetic Citizen said...

I think you can pretty much imagine anything you durn well want to in that chapter.

Peter V. Bella said...

Why not ask Obama, who claims to be a Christian if he believes that God performs miracles, yes or no, and then ask him if he says "yes"... ask him if gays can be converted through prayer.

That is not allowed. It is in The Book. The Chosen One will not be asked questions. He was chosen by God, and by God he will rule us all.

Peter V. Bella said...

Katie Couric demonstrates on a daily basis that the media is all about talent and looks. Intelligence is no longer required.

Michael The Magnificent said...

The Exalted: first some distractions on what church she "belongs" to

"My church, I don't have a church, I'm not a member of any church. I get to visit a couple of churches in Alaska when I'm home, including one, Wasilla Bible Church, and that's the one that you're talking about."

Seems pretty clear to me. She attends a couple of different churches, none of which she calls her own.

then throwing her hands up on "i dont know what prayers get answered,"

Do you? No Christian knows which prayers will get answered.

meaning, in her view, its possible that one could pray to have another's sexual orientation changed.

If the good Lord can make you a homosexual, then he can remake you a heterosexual.

she is v. good at one thing: meaningless gibber jabber

You're a twit.

chuck b. said...

"Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) told the Blade in an exclusive written interview this week that he appreciates the Log Cabin Republicans’ decision to endorse him, and he hopes “gay and lesbian Americans will give full consideration to supporting me.”


McCain’s decision to answer questions submitted to him in writing marks the first known time a Republican presidential nominee has agreed to an interview with a gay publication."

http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=21367

Palladian said...

"I bet one third of the gay men and women I work with had their heterosexuality stolen from them by child sexual abuse."

I try to steal heterosexuality from my straight (adult) male friends all the time. Sometimes it works. Sure, they might eventually recover their stolen heterosexuality. But it's usually the worse for wear.

"I do not believe all homosexuality is a choice or that the orientation can be prayed away, but obviously not all homosexual behavior is orientation. It happens in prisons, same sex bording schools, the Navy (ask any Marine, they will tell you most sailors are gay), etc. and not everyone who participates in such things go on to be predominently gay (well maybe those sailors)."

This is a good point. I've had sex with a lot of men who weren't "gay", who didn't lead "gay lives", who simply, at one time or other in their lives, chose to have sex with another man. Since Trooper brought up that hot NY Post story, I'll admit that I've had sex with a NY firefighter and a Marine. Only one of the two would identify himself as "gay".

There's a difference between behavior and orientation. Neither is a sin in my estimation, but your mileage may vary. As long as you keep your behaviors and beliefs consensual, adult and don't try to force them on anyone else using the power of the State, I'm fine with you. This goes for gays as well as Christians.

Palladian said...

"You're a twit."

I would have used a different vowel in there.

Donn said...

ZPS:
She's proven to me, over and over again, that she is uninterested and/or uninformed about most national and international issues.

I agree, sad to say.

Methadras said...

Synova said...

the whole thing seemed to be sexual allegory for what is given away when nations try too hard to accommodate their neighbors and gain favor at the expense of what's right.


Sure sounds like an Obama Presidency to me. Then the world will love us.

Trooper York said...

Titus says the fire house guy wasn't him, which I figured but I thought that story and the lady in the cow suit were pretty funny.

You know the kind of thing newspapers should concern themselves with since you can't trust them to tell the truth about anything more important than that.

Lisa said...

The media is going out of the way to make reasonable comments by Palin seem loopy.

Michael said...

Palin: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made."

Ann: "Does that mean she thinks sexual orientation is a choice?"

Geeeee, Ann...what do YOU think??

Give-me-a-frigging-break.

If I told a gay friend that he or she had "made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made"...the very first question out of their mouth would be: Are you saying I made the "choice" to be gay???

Why the silly "oh, gosh, may she really meant..."

Anybody who heard it or reads the transcript knows exactly what she believe.

Michael said...

Here's a follow up to the locals:

How many HERE think being gay is a CHOICE??

Michael said...

Another follow up for the locals:

The next time you're with a gay friend or relative (and yes, we ALL have them...even trooper and hoosier and fen...and alex)...ask them why they made that choice...and see what they have to say about it.

Trooper York said...

On the other hand luckyoldson doesn't choose to be a douche bag. It's in his DNA.

Palladian said...

Ahh, here comes Lucky Old Michael to slurp up the sloppy seconds at the ass-end of a thread, as usual.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

chickenlittle said...

@Michael:

Re male gayness:
Is pitch vs. catch a choice or fixed "orientation"?

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Peter V. Bella said...

Hey Mikeytroll,
Lay off the booze. You are repeating yourself. Or are you a stuttering prick.

Synova said...

So, Michael... since you believe in being fair and everything...

What about asking Obama if, since he's a Christian, does he believe God can perform miracles, yes or no, and then ask him if prayer can change a person's orientation?

That would be fair.

And then Obama would say exactly what Palin has said... that he's not going to judge people and we should treat people equally and isn't it wonderful that we're a tolerant nation.

And everyone would think that was wonderful!

Palin has actually, for real, protected the rights of gay Alaskans by vetoing anti-gay legistlation. Why would it matter if she thought being gay was a choice, or result of life events, or biologically determined and in what percentages for each category?

The way we treat people shouldn't depend on that.

Are you, Michael, saying that sexual orientation is NEVER due to choice or life events? Not ever?

Synova said...

I'd love to see someone try to pin Obama down on the issue, to *make* him say one way or the other, dangit... "just let me ask you the question." and not let him get away with a general statement of any sort. Don't let him say something general and reassuring... make him take a stand.

If he's going to present himself as a friend to gay people *make* him say it's biological and *make* him say that God can't "cure" it. Not won't... not that he can't speak for God, bla bla bla, or say what God will do... but make him say it one way or the other "Do you think that gays can be converted, Senator? You're a Christian... don't you think God can do that, Senator?"

What Palin wanted to say about the issue was the right thing and wholly adequate.

Michael The Magnificent said...

Trooper York: On the other hand luckyoldson doesn't choose to be a douche bag. It's in his DNA.

Because luckyoldsun was born a douche bag, he has my pity. However, coming here to be a douche bag is a choice, and for that he has my contempt.

Therein lies the difference.

chickenlittle said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Not being gay, I really couldn't say. But I will say that my own own straight orientation has been fixed since I became aware of sex.
My decision to first have sex was definitely a choice- and it still is (my wife willing of course).

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova peter - Michael The Magnificent : Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Michael said...

chickenshi: Do YOU think it is a choice?

Michael said...

Why can't you just answer the question??

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova peter - Michael The Magnificent :

gutless - lacking courage

Peter V. Bella said...

Keep drinking and sucking that bong Mikeytroll. You sound more and more ridiculous with each comment.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova peter - Michael The Magnificent : Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Donn said...

Michael,

I'll answer your question.

I think for some gays it's a choice (and have been told such by gay friends or co-workers), and for some it's not a choice.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent : Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Donn = Finally

Michael said...

donn- but what do YOU think??

mcg said...

Perhaps the choice that Sarah was talking about was music. I mean, who wouldn't want to have a little Melissa Etheridge in their library---but owning the complete Janis Ian collection is another thing altogether.

mcg said...

Just when I thought michael had hit bottom...

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?

mcg said...

But don't get me wrong, "Seventeen" has a real nice groove.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?

Donn said...

Michael,

I TOLD you what I think......notice the words:

I THINK...

I didn't say, for example, some people think....I said I think.

mcg said...

Frank Zappa's "He's So Gay" was originally called "He's So Gay, Not That There's Anything Wrong With That, After All He Didn't Choose It" but he just couldn't get the meter to work.

Michael said...

donn, i don't believe you have gay friends who have told you it was a "choice."

Michael said...

mcg: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?

Michael said...

gutless - lacking courage

mcg said...

donn, i don't believe you have gay friends who have told you it was a "choice."

Ah. Well, that certainly encourages us to talk.

Michael said...

mcg: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?

mcg said...

Only if I get to choose you, sweetie.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -

Absolutely gutless.

I can't believe not one of you have the balls to answer such a straight forward question...one way or another.

*But, based on your inability to do so...tells everybody how bigoted (in case you don't know; obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions) ou really are.

Webrider said...

Annie, love reading your columns, but doggone it, sometimes you're just too lawyerly! This is a perfect example of parsing a sentance TOO MUCH, because of your lawyer training to argue both sides of any issue! "If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice."

Michael said...

Webrider said..."I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice."

Correcto mundo.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -

Absolutely gutless.

I can't believe not one of you have the balls to answer such a straight forward question...one way or another.

*But, based on your inability to do so...tells everybody how bigoted (in case you don't know; obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions) ou really are.

Donn said...

Michael,

I have had two women, both self-identified lesbians, tell me that although they had had sex with both men and women, preferred having sex with women.

I had a neighbor who had 3 kids, who left his wife for another man.

I have an acquaintance whose wife also had three kids, and is now living with a woman.

I had a co-worker who graduated from Mills College (and all girls school) who said that many women that attend there have sex with other women. For some, I'm sure it's just an experiment, for others, probably will identify as lesbians.

I also read a gay man in the Village Voice who said that frankly "the we don't have a choice" idea as insulting to him.

You also have the example of Anne Heche, and I'm sure others if I cared about it all that much.

Lastly, unless you apologize for calling me a liar, than I am done talking to you.

Michael said...

donn: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?

Donn said...

Michael,

Again, I have already told you what I believe, AND since I still don't have that apology, you'll be wasting your time asking me anymore questions.

Michael said...

donn, anecdotal stories are bullshit.

What do YOU think??

Just answer the fucking question.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -

Absolutely gutless.

I can't believe not one of you have the balls to answer such a straight forward question...one way or another.

*But, based on your inability to do so...tells everybody how bigoted (in case you don't know; obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions) ou really are.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -

homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

chickenlittle said...

And I asked you, Andrew Michael Sullivan, whether your preference for pitching vs. catching was a choice or fixed "orientation"?

Actually, I think it's a splendid question for you.

Michael said...

chicken shit: I asked a question.

You apparently don't have the guts or intellect to answer.

But we both know you're just a fucking ignorant bigot.

Michael said...

Trooper - Palladian - chicken shit - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -

Absolutely gutless.

I can't believe not one of you have the balls to answer such a straight forward question...one way or another.

Jim said...

michael -

Donn answered your question. You chose to ignore his answer because it would have ruined your complete hijacking of the thread with your inane repetition of the same question over and over.

Did you ever think that they didn't answer because: (a) no one takes you seriously, so why should they answer any question you ask, (b) that they were no longer following the thread and had moved on [did you notice at any time in your compulsive posting that the only one posting was you?], and/or (c) they understood that you were planning on calling them a liar if they said they didn't, and that they had no interest in playing that kind of juvenile game with you?

Seriously...it's time for you to move on to a new blog...In case you hadn't noticed, you've pretty much become known as the resident AstroTroller and a pretty pathetic one at that.

Donn said...

Jim,

I've come to believe that there is something really wrong with Michael, and I'm not trying to be mean by saying that. Last week he told me he answered my question five times, yet he never did.

Tonight, as you point out, I did answer his question and he kept claiming I didn't. That strikes me as very strange.

Anyway, since he called me a liar, when I wasn't, I will not talk to him again until he apologizes. Since I know he won't, I'm not going to waste my time any longer.

Bezgoal said...

Ms. Althouse,
I have been checking in on your blog with a sort of fascinated horror for the last few days. On a broad range of topics, you seem to consider yourself a deeply thoughtful and courageously honest observer. I must say that I, on the contrary, find you deeply unimpressive, and overly reactive to whatever seems provocatively contrarian, especially if it supports a right-wing position.

Michael The Magnificent said...

Michael: Trooper - Palladian - chicken shit - synova - peter - Michael The Magnificent - donn - mcg -...

Dude, you've got issues. Seek help.

mcg said...

Seems particularly... touched... that among those he is hounding is at least one gay man.

Trooper York said...

Michael is Luckyoldson and I already told him I don't respond to child molestors.

pagan_child said...

It's nuture vs. nature... basic high school physcology all over again. Both sides have facts/opinions as to why their right and both sides have facts/opinions to counter out what the other side said. It's a dizzying conflict that can never be answered by sitting down and looking at history. As someone who is an alternate lifestyle practicer I know that my choice... has nothing to do with the way my partner looks or my biological make-up. I believe in something deeper so who knows what it is.

Rejectamenta said...

Of course you can't "pray the gay away", but with the proper therapy and the right psycho-tropic medications you can suppress the un-natural urges and try to live a normal life. It isn't easy, but the rewards are substantial and are reaped in the next life as well.