September 6, 2008

"The question is, will Mrs. Clinton fight Ms. Palin to help her former rival, Mr. Obama?"

Patrick Healy asks:
Mrs. Clinton and Ms. Palin have little in common beyond their breakout performances at the conventions and the soap opera aspects of their family lives. Mrs. Clinton always faces high expectations; Ms. Palin faced low expectations this week, and benefited from them. Mrs. Clinton can seem harsh when she goes on the attack; Ms. Palin has shown a knack for attacking without seeming nasty. Mrs. Clinton has a lot of experience; Ms. Palin, not so much. Mrs. Clinton is pantsuits; Ms. Palin is skirts.

Some Republican delegates in St. Paul saw starker differences.

“Sarah’s smile is sincere, which I never felt from Hillary, who has anger and resentment in her eyes,” said Ann Schmuecker, a delegate from Mountain Home, Arkansas, where she met the Clintons decades ago.
(Song cue.)

But Palin may appeal to the "white working women with children living in the exurbs and in rural parts of battleground states" who stuck by Hillary in the primaries. Obama may look to Hillary to try to deliver those voters to him, but then the question is: Does she want to?
Some of her aides note with a hint of resentment that Mr. Obama did not pick her as his running mate; he did not even vet her fully.
Fully? I thought he didn't vet her at all!
Plus, they add, her fall calendar also includes campaigning for Senate Democratic candidates, not just for Mr. Obama.
Ha ha, yeah. She's too busy!
“Let me tell you something,” said Luanne Van Werven, a Republican delegate from Lynden, Wash., as the convention closed late Thursday night. “I secretly think Hillary loves Sarah Palin.”
Oh, is sisterhood powerful all of a sudden? No. It's just that Hillary may want Obama to lose so she can run for 2012.

ADDED: In the comments, some people are making something of the NYT's use of different honorifics for Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. Why is it Mrs. Clinton and Ms. Palin? The NYT is following a longstanding neutral rule:
The use of “Mrs.” is appropriate whenever a woman prefers it. It isn’t our choice, yours or mine; it is hers. Our style rule calls for us to use "Ms." in subsequent references to a woman unless she prefers "Miss" or "Mrs." and reporters are told that they should ask for the woman’s preference. That holds for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton as well as other women (in her case, of course, "Senator" is also an option in subsequent references).
Hillary Clinton is one of those women who asked to be called Mrs.:
THE sign outside Nancy Pelosi's office bears the mark of her feminist roots: it identifies her as "Ms. Pelosi," using the honorific created half a century ago to give women an alternative to disclosing their marital status.

But mostly Mrs. Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, goes by just that — Mrs. Pelosi.

Across the Capitol, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, is referred to as Mrs. Clinton at every roll call. Yet the women in the Senate are split: seven use Mrs., but the other six go by Ms., including three who are married: Olympia J. Snowe, Republican of Maine; Mary L. Landrieu, Democrat of Louisiana; and Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan.
Now, you can analyze the personality or the political strategy of various women as they decide whether to overcome the default and ask to be called "Mrs." (or "Miss"), but put aside your theories about New York Times bias.

233 comments:

1 – 200 of 233   Newer›   Newest»
David said...

Hilary has got to be envious.

If she had just a dollop of Palin's charisma, she would be the nominee.

Hilary is not a natural. She has made herself into what she is, but whatever humor and charm she may have was excised from her public personna long ago.

Or maybe it has to do with that uncontrollable attribute--beauty.

Sarah has it. Hilary does not.

Beauty matters. Just check out the news anchors.

Torn ligament said...

Or maybe it has to do with that uncontrollable attribute--beauty.

So it's not about an election for new government it's a beauty contest for you?

Alex said...

Blogger Torn ligament said...

Or maybe it has to do with that uncontrollable attribute--beauty.

So it's not about an election for new government it's a beauty contest for you?
4:18 PM

You probably weren't complaining when Bill Clinton won the 1992 beauty contest against old man Bush.

David said...

Torn--how about distinguishing between a question and a statement?

Obama is a handsome guy. Mr. Shirtless. The first presidential contender since JFK that dares take off his shirt in public.

Looks matter.

"Uncontrollable attribute . . ."

Like stupidity.

Chet said...

The question is, will it work?

The woman who's being dispatched is the woman who was thrown over for someone else, by her own party.

The unflattering comparisons..... and Hillary doesn't represent the anti-politician that makes Palin so attractive. These women being launched like cannons are all heavily entrenched career politicians......

.....who were all passed over for the main slots on the Democratic ticket !!!!!

Sy said...

The cat fight of the century. Coming to a theatre near you, 2012.

Chet said...

Sending out these women to do battle, is nothing more than a painful reminder that none of them was good enough for the VP Slot.

If the Democrats care so much about women, why isn't one in their party running as President or at least VP ???

Peter V. Bella said...

Mrs. Clinton has a lot of experience; Ms. Palin, not so much. Mrs. Clinton is pantsuits; Ms. Palin is skirts.

Is this a misprint? Shouldn't it be Ms. Palin has a lot of experience and Mrs. Clinton not so much? What documented, verifiable, fact checked experience does Hillary Clinton have? Her autobiography?

Windbag said...

Hillary is accustomed to supporting men who use and discard her. She'll campaign for him.

vbspurs said...

Palin is the un-Hillary.

She's un-Hillary in real, point at them, list them, count them down sorts of ways.

A non-celebrity, a woman with executive power, a woman who didn't sacrifice having more than 1 kid for her job.

In the grand pantheon of qualities Americans hold most dear, Palin is that most American of things: A self-made person.

But she's also the un-Hillary in awkward to define ways too.

Palin's pretty. She's not manipulative. She's approachable. She's genuine.

I used to think Hillary would try to sabotage Obama's campaign. If he's elected, there will be no President Hillary Clinton.

I've moved away from that feeling. Instead, now I think if Palin wins alongside McCain, people will forget there was a Hillary Clinton.

She and Nancy Pelosi have to join forces to defeat this threat to their female exceptionalism.

Cheers,
Victoria

Peter V. Bella said...

he did not even vet her fully.

Why would he have to. Isn't she the most vetted person in the world? That is what she told us during th campaign.

George said...

As just about everyone above says, the irony is clear.

The Democrats need a rabbit, a hat, and someone to do the pulling.

Peter V. Bella said...

There are several million reason$$ why Mrs. Clinton would help Obama. Unfortunately he has not come up with them yet.



Her massive campaign debt.

Terry said...

Hilary's best and probably only chance to become president is a Clinton/Obama ticket in 2012. If Obama wins in 2008, it would be safe to say that with a sycophantic media's help, he would do two terms. That put's Hillary's next chance out in 2016 by which time the electorate will have tired of a Democrat regime and will elect a Republican. So Hillary gets pushed out again to 2020 by which time she is old toast with no chance of winning. If Obama loses it also gives the fawning media four years to beat up on Palin in preparation for Hillary/Obama 2012.

Peter V. Bella said...

As to the skirt pantsuit issue; Palin looks great in both.

vbspurs said...

Hillary is accustomed to supporting men who use and discard her. She'll campaign for him.

OUCH. But so true.

There's something vaguely South American about this entire campaign. It's fascinating, tawdry, and compelling.

Peter V. Bella said...

David said...
Obama is a handsome guy. Mr. Shirtless. The first presidential contender since JFK that dares take off his shirt in public.


So, we are voting for a male stripper for president? Does he pole or lap dance too?

Jim said...

1) Hillary's appeal is vastly overstated amongst the blue-collar Democrats.

Let's face it: in the Democratic primaries they had a choice between a Marxist (Obama), an effete pretty boy (Edwards), and Hillary Clinton. So of course she got a lot of votes: the other two were never going to be serious options, so she got them by default - not because they were in love with her candidacy. Because they were never die-hard supporters, there is no "loyalty factor" to which an appeal can be made.

Now the choice is between John McCain and the Marxist. Those blue collar Democrats are unlikely to be swayed to vote for the Marxist they already rejected once even if Hillary says "pretty please."

2) Let's also not forget that Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" was going on during the primaries where most of those blue-collar Democrats live. Hillary got a lot of votes that were never going to go for her in the general election: they were spoiler votes and nothing else. As such, she's not going to be able to get them for Obama either.

3) Even if she goes on the campaign trail, I'd be very surprised if she attacked Palin rather than McCain. Hardcore feminists might be supportive, but she would surely forfeit future votes from women in the squishy middle if she were seen to be collaborating with a campaign she has repeatedly called out for sexism in order to take down another female candidate. She's far too calculating a politician not to have already figured that for herself.

4) She clearly doesn't like or support the candidacy of Obama. She has complained repeatedly about his underhanded tactics in securing the nomination, and now when he finds himself in trouble she's supposed to come rescue him? I can just imagine the peals of laughter in the Clinton household when that phone call came in...

garage mahal said...

Palin's pretty. She's not manipulative. She's approachable. She's genuine.

Well she is pretty.

vbspurs said...

Let's leave aside "manipulative". They're both politicians, after all.

But are seriously going to say she's not genuine and approachable, most especially compared to my point contrasting Hillary Clinton to her?

garage mahal said...

But are seriously going to say she's not genuine and approachable, most especially compared to my point contrasting Hillary Clinton to her?

No she is not genuine or approachable. What makes you think she is? She lies through her teeth and runs from the press refusing to answer questions! Good God.

Will said...

Why is it Mrs. Clinton and Ms. Palin? Are they questioning the validity of Gov. Palin's marriage now?

vbspurs said...

I can just imagine the peals of laughter in the Clinton household when that phone call came in...

Nicely written reply, Jim. I tend to use the "list" method, too.

I went to the Hillary Forums the other day, and I was struck by the hatred, just flat out hatred towards Obama by many of those people there, men and women both.

She risks alienating the very people who will contribute time and especially money, to her campaign.

The other people you list, including the Operation Chaos folk, could care less about Hillary, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

But would she slap the face of so many of her supporters, by giving Obama more than just a token hand?

I don't think so. She'll pull an Eisenhower, and rev it up just in the last weeks of the campaign.

Hanah said...

Why is Clinton referred to as "Mrs." while Palin is "Ms."?

vbspurs said...

What makes you think she is?

Her entire life story.

She lies through her teeth and runs from the press refusing to answer questions! Good God.

I got news for you. Bill Clinton is approachable too. And Jimmy Carter is genuine.

And I'd fight anyone who says different.

Sometimes partisanship makes it hard for people to admit things publicly. Okay, that's human.

But don't put the blinders on when you're on your own.

Roger J. said...

Why should she answer questions?
You leftys wouldnt believe her anyway--shes playing a very smart strategy here--deal with it. But if this disturbs you, by all means vote for Bambi.

Simon said...

Perhaps I shouldn't look to him as a bellwether, but has (former Hillary delegate) Chris been persuaded to cross lines by the selection of Palin?

Torn ligament said...

You probably weren't complaining when Bill Clinton won the 1992 beauty contest against old man Bush.

Huh? Idiotic response. I don't care what the ppl running my country look like. Not when it's $300 trillion in debt and owned by the Chinese.

vbspurs said...

owned by the Chinese.

There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

I think you crossed it.

Eric said...

Does anyone else see some desperation in Obama reaching out to Hilary now? I mean, she stayed in the campaign long after it was clear she would lose, so he must blame her for giving McCain a free ride during the last half of the primary season.

And as Ann pointed out, he doesn't really have any reason to trust her. She comes out waaaaaay ahead if he loses the election, as long as she doesn't get blamed for it. Normally the candidate could offer a cabinet position as a reward, but Hilary's already a senator... she doesn't benefit from taking a job that can get her blamed for things that go wrong.

And as for a Clinton/Obama run in 2012... why would she choose Obama? By 2012 he's not a fresh new face; his rhetoric is getting old. Did anyone think Obama would choose Kerry as his running mate? Or Edwards?

otcconan said...

Has anyone else noticed this trend? It's always Mrs. Clinton but Ms. Palin. What is up with that?

Torn ligament said...

There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

I think you crossed it.


I'm crushed.

You should care about your country and less about how cute how cute the candidates are.

Alex said...

Can anyone tell me why this story refers to Mrs. Palin as Ms.?
I've seen this in other stories as well, and it really bothers me.

Torn ligament said...

You leftys wouldnt believe her anyway--shes playing a very smart strategy here--deal with it.

She's not allowed to have a strategy, she's being handled by the campaign machine at this point. The GOP have stated that they don't want her to make a mistake.

Terry said...

"And as for a Clinton/Obama run in 2012... why would she choose Obama?"

Because Hillary/Obama for progressives is an orgasmic ticket.

And in terms of practical politics, he would have more "experience" and the full time Democratic MSM campaign machine would have four years to beat up on Palin.

Only one thing scares a Democrat more than Palin: Palin/Jindal...

vbspurs said...

Palin/Jindal

Honestly, though I myself would be delighted and I've touted it too, don't you think that's 'too much of the same thing'?

A VP candidate should bring to the table qualities or experience not shared by the Presidential candidate.

Palin differs very little from Jindal, if what I've read is true and I've understood it to be true.

Eric said...

Not when it's $300 trillion in debt and owned by the Chinese.

If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem.

- J Paul Getty


We've traded little pieces of paper to the Chinese for real stuff. Who, exactly, is in the position of power there?

Eric said...

The GOP have stated that they don't want her to make a mistake.

Oh really? Who, exactly, made that statement? I'm guessing I won't find that on the RNC website. Is it also something Lucille-who-won't-use-her-last-name overheard?

Torn ligament said...

We've traded little pieces of paper to the Chinese for real stuff.

Are you 12?

Is that how you think how global economics function?

Torn ligament said...

Oh really? Who, exactly, made that statement? I'm guessing I won't find that on the RNC website.

I'm guessing you won't either.
Todd Harris, a GOP strategist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AV_54517R8

Terry said...

Victoria. Palin and Jindal are alike but not as much as one may think.

They are both fresh faces, minds and souls as yet untarnished by Washington.

They are both intelligent, but in different and key ways: Palin the self-made woman, wise in the ways of nature and the outdoors, with a gift for communicating. Jindal with genius level book-smarts and a history of applying his intellect. That is a good match.

I think what you described is the way VP's *used* to be chosen. But if the two are alike in the right ways - the ways that are attracting people to Palin now - Jindal could run for the top of the ticket twice after Palin's two terms.

Talk about liberal heads exploding...

vbspurs said...

Lucille

"Lucille" is Michelle Obama's Secret Service name, in case of interest.

I heard it from my friend, Mildred.

mcg said...

Remember how the national MSM had a hissyfit when Bush toured more sympathetic local media outlets? How dare he bypass our filter! How dare you prevent us from framing? Well, that's what is happening here, at least for awhile (2 weeks is my understanding). Jonathan Alter even predicted it. Sully is having fits (duh), but interestingly Chris Matthews seems more sympathetic.

Eric said...

Is that how you think how global economics function?

In fact I do. You think the rules change because the numbers are large? The value of all debt depends on the willingness of the the borrower to repay. The debt the Chinese hold is dollar denominated, and we control the value of the dollar.

Do you realize the slide in the dollar has caused far more pain in China than in the US? We could break the Chinese just by printing a bunch of money. That wouldn't be a good idea for other reasons, but don't think for a minute the Mandarins in Beijing are in the driver's seat.

vbspurs said...

Talk about liberal heads exploding...

You make good points, but I still think they're better apart than together, as you allude to in your Presidential scenario.

A woman from Alaska with a Yup'ik husband. An Indian-American male from the Deep South.

This is the face of the Republican Party today, and it is good.

cubanbob said...

Hilary was married to a governor, Sarah was elected governor.

Hilary needs to be seem helping Obama, as doing the best of all who are campaigner for Obama. Without that she has no future in politics as a democrat. And she needs to retire her campaign debt. If Obama crashes and burns, its not her fault. If McCain has a fairly successful term, she will adjust her ambitions and be a major player in the Senate.

Torn ligament said...

We could break the Chinese just by printing a bunch of money.

Fabulous strategy, Grasshopper, Creating gross inflation for the country is the way to handle the situation. Yep, that'll show them.

dbp said...

Simon: "Perhaps I shouldn't look to him as a bellwether, but has (former Hillary delegate) Chris been persuaded to cross lines by the selection of Palin"?

IIRC. In the BloggingHeads TV episode with Jane (you ignorant et.) Hamsher. Our host indicated that Chris has indeed switched to McCain Palin.

Eric said...

Todd Harris is a hired gun who's worked for McCain in the past, but isn't working for McCain (or any other Republican, as far as I can tell) now.

Do you always quote former employees as an official source, or just Republicans? What you're saying about Palin may, in fact, be true. Or maybe not. Todd Harris's opinion sheds no light on the subject.

mcg said...

Well, for Sarah Palin to ever win the experience comparison with Hillary, Todd is going to have to go cheat on her.

mcg said...

I have absolutely zero difficulty with Sarah's need to "cram" at this point. I mean, remember what Barack Obama said way back when: in order to run for President he'd have to start basically as soon as he took office as Senator. And he did, which is why he's done so little in office. I for one am glad that Sarah Palin has spent her time as Governor actually governing, focusing on her state.

Terry said...

"This is the face of the Republican Party today, and it is good."

On that I could not agree more.

If all goes well, I think August 29, 2008 will become known as the day the old Republican party died and the new Republican party was born.

vbspurs said...

Maureen Dowd on Line 2.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
vbspurs said...

If all goes well, I think August 29, 2008 will become known as the day the old Republican party died and the new Republican party was born.

I had a very similar feeling during the RNC.

mcg said...

You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.

Eric said...

I wasn't advocating inflation as a policy. I'm just trying to point out the Chinese are dancing at the end of our string, not the other way around. If the US economy gets a cough, the Chinese economy has Ebola. How is that not good for us?

Jim Hu said...

This strikes me as clueless by the Obama campaign. Hey Hillary, we're too busy - can you take out their Veep? Oh and can you get me a cup of coffee while you're up?

dr kill said...

No.

Torn ligament said...

What you're saying about Palin may, in fact, be true.

Well, it's what is happening and it's what needs to be done to effectively manage a campaign. To think that she has any say in the matter is ludicrous which is my point.

Jim said...

Another thought occurred to me re: Hillary campaigning for Obama.

McCain has already run a couple of quick ads using Hillary's quotes from the primaries against Obama - specifically ones in which she states that McCain is more qualified for the presidency than Obama.

Given that McCain's campaign has thus far seemed to be fairly adept at responding to the news cycle (unlike many previous Republican campaigns), isn't it likely that they would cut a few more (or even recycle the ones they already have) and run them everywhere the Obama campaign sends Hillary to campaign on his behalf?

That would seem to be the obvious strategy for McCain...Again, she's anything but stupid, so I can't believe that she wouldn't see that sort of thing coming...

Why would she possibly set herself up to look so stupid as to be caught saying one thing on the stump at the exact same time that local TV viewers will see what she really thinks about Obama? Would she really risk damaging her own credibility in future campaigns for what, in all likelihood, would be a losing cause?

Does anyone here really think she's ready to fall on her own sword for Obama's sake?

Alex said...

Now Palin has her own pastor problem:

http://blogs.jta.org/politics/2008/09/02/1226/sarah-palins-looming-pastor-problem/

Torn ligament said...

If the US economy gets a cough, the Chinese economy has Ebola. How is that not good for us?

The US economy has more than a cough and a long way to go before current situation bottoms out. It hardly matters to me how badly my neighbor is affected by my house burning to the ground and everything I own and love going up in flames.

EnigmatiCore said...

Hillary is screwed at this point.

If Obama wins, she's shut out.

If McCain wins, she's shut out, unless McCain shits the bed without dying. And even if he shits the bed, there are no promises.

If McCain succeeds or dies in office, it will be Palin for 8+.

Basically, her window has passed. She has a *small* chance if McCain wins, but it is very small.

Her best approach is to be the new Ted Kennedy. As such, she'll probably help Obama a little, but mostly help other Senate candidates.

I don't think she is going to try really hard to sway this election one way or the other.

Meade said...

"Well, for Sarah Palin to ever win the experience comparison with Hillary, Todd is going to have to go cheat on her."

He'd better get busy then because he'll need to cheat on her at least half a dozen times, right?

"Even if she goes on the campaign trail, I'd be very surprised if she attacked Palin rather than McCain."

She won't even attack McCain who she is friends with.

The attacks will be on Bush, and the same Independent voters who elected Bush twice will elect McCain partly because, by Nov. 4, they will view those attacks as being unfair and in bad faith and therefore unAmerican - three things moderate Independents can't stand whenever they are perceived in either of the two major parties.

vbspurs said...

Does anyone here really think she's ready to fall on her own sword for Obama's sake?

Depends what part of Hillary is stronger -- her ambition or her avarice.

Eric said...

TL, how do you reconcile that with the fact the economy is still growing?

Alex said...

People - remember the most important truth about Hillary. She's not farked because of Obama/McCain/Palin, but because of her own glaring deficiencies of character. It's not anyone Else's fault but hers.

Alex said...

Eric said...

TL, how do you reconcile that with the fact the economy is still growing?

6:13 PM

GDP grows, but unemployment rises. So the corporate cash box is increasing - how does it help the average worker?

Terry said...

Alex. Ho. Hum. No fire. No smoke. Are you sure you want to talk about the candidate's choice of pastor?

You do remember Obama's pastor/mentor and father figure of over 20 years is don't you?

Wright. I knew you did.

vbspurs said...

Now Palin has her own pastor problem:

You know, you like saying and posting inflammatory things on Althouse. And you're all over the place with them too.

Interesting.

vbspurs said...

Basically, her window has passed. She has a *small* chance if McCain wins, but it is very small.

I think that's right. However, it is not beyond the scope of Obama to replace Biden with Hillary. It's outlandish, and not credible but it just might work.

In fact, it's the only thing that would be missing in this historic, singular Presidential election of 2008: one of the 4 candidates dying or resigning.

George said...

Alex--

I visited the website you referenced, re: Palin's looming pastor problem.

Maybe because it's a Saturday night and I just ate some hot peanut butter cookies and washed them down with a Sam Adams, but I'm not seeing the huge problem, except for looming indigestion.

Can you sum it to up in 25 words or less?

Urp.

Eric said...

Alex, ideal situation it's not. Neither is it financial meltdown. We'll probably have a very mild recession at some point, but every time this happens you find people predicting "a depression that makes 1929 look like good times."

It's some flaw in human nature, I guess.

Eric said...

George, the pre-diabetic in me is passionately hating you right now. Braggart.

rhhardin said...

``Don't blame me. I voted against the 19th Amendment.''

As long as women vote, this is what you get.

As opposed to women holding office, which is fine. You just don't want them voting.

There's just too big a bloc (not a majority! probably not a majority, anyway.) of insane women when it comes to decisions. These women are pandered to.

Men would have no difficulty choosing between Palin and Hillary because, in the first place, their campaigns would have been conducted completely differently for men.

Torn ligament said...

TL, how do you reconcile that with the fact the economy is still growing?

Well, that's debatable for a start.

But regardless; the current situation with failing banks, the mortgage crisis, (just how may bailouts can the government afford?) the auto industry tanking, oil costs....the only ones doing well are the oil companies.

The irony of the govt bailing out Fannie and Freddie is they are saving Japanese and Chinese investors at the expense of taxpayers.

George X. said...

Ah yes, more of the endless stream of snarky posts against the Democrats. Of course, "cruel neutrality" requires that just as many are aimed at Obama as at Clinton.

Really, Althouse, your "oath" has gone from simply hypocritical to absolutely pathetic.

Peter V. Bella said...

She has complained repeatedly about his underhanded tactics in securing the nomination, and now when he finds himself in trouble she's supposed to come rescue him?

His underhanded tactics? If I remember correctly she was the underhanded one and he won fair and square. She violated the Florida and Michigan rules then wanted the rules changed to benefit her and her alone. She hired mark Penn, an evil, vicious, and abhorrent man; he is her brain. She was his puppet. The liberals have a lot of nerved talking against Karl Rove. Penn is a heinous criminal compared to Rove. Underhanded tactics indeed.

Peter V. Bella said...

garage mahal said...
No she is not genuine or approachable. What makes you think she is? She lies through her teeth and runs from the press refusing to answer questions! Good God.

The question was referring to Palin, not Hillary.

Kansas City said...

It seems unlikely that Hillary could swing many votes to Obama as as a "surrogate" [sp?] even if she wanted to (which I strongly doubt). I can't think of another person not on the ticket (or even VP on the ticket) who moved many votes in a past election.

In this case, there is a general, probably accurate, perception that Clinton and Obama can't stand each other, so with all the other baggage, how could Hillary possibly be viewed as sincere and effective in campaigning for him?

The funny part is that, if Obama loses, it appears very likely that his failure to pick Hillary as VP will be viewed as the reason.

Wouldn't that make Hillary happy? Wouldn't it be great to know what Hillary really is thinking at thi point?

EnigmatiCore said...

garage mahal said...
No she is not genuine or approachable. What makes you think she is? She lies through her teeth and runs from the press refusing to answer questions! Good God.

The question was referring to Palin, not Obama.

EnigmatiCore said...

"The funny part is that, if Obama loses, it appears very likely that his failure to pick Hillary as VP will be viewed as the reason.

Wouldn't that make Hillary happy? Wouldn't it be great to know what Hillary really is thinking at thi point?"

Kansas City is right. Victoria, I should have considered this in my odds above. Change that slight chance to a better than slight chance. If McCain wins and then bombs, *then* Hillary becomes a formidable candidate again.

Otherwise, she is screwed.

Torn ligament said...

Men would have no difficulty choosing between Palin and Hillary because, in the first place, their campaigns would have been conducted completely differently for men.

Would you explain pls.

Eric said...

Well, for Sarah Palin to ever win the experience comparison with Hillary, Todd is going to have to go cheat on her.

As a general rule, it's not a good idea to cheat on armed women.

Torn ligament said...

As a general rule, it's not a good idea to cheat on armed women.

Particularly one who can also field dress a moose.

'That's not a knife, THIS is a knife.
Crocodile Dundee'

Meade said...

"As opposed to women holding office, which is fine. You just don't want them voting."

Crazy, but you know, that just might work. Only males can vote... but only females can hold office and govern.

Torn ligament said...

"As opposed to women holding office, which is fine. You just don't want them voting."

Crazy, but you know, that just might work. Only males can vote... but only females can hold office and govern.


Now you're talking!

Lem said...

NEWS ANALYSIS FOUND NOWHERE ELSE.

Given that Hillary's own accomplishments are already suspect as it is. Fair or not, the meme is that she rode on her husband cocktails to make it where she is, as opposed to Palin. (looks was not mention)

And now Obama wants Hillary to add Palins Iron Maiden to her bio?

I think not.

If Hillary accepts however, it will be because she believes her own chances to have slipped away for good ala Mondale, a Gov of Mass, Gore, Kerry.

Even if Palin looses the comparisons btwg her and Palin will be made from now on. It's easy, it's lazy, it's perfect. For an example of that see Howard Gutman.

If I was Hillary, I would wait to see what Oprah does.

keyze911 said...

now it's getting rediculous. Obama is attacking Palin over earmarks when his own VP requested 120,000,000 this year alone and over 1,000,000,000 since 2000.

Obama himself requested 100,000,00o this year and close 500,000,000 since he's been in the Senate. Including millions that went towards projects that favored and helped his wife and Tony Rezko, among other members of the Chicago/Daley machine

He even doled out a few million to help out Biden's son. Funny how that works out. The same son of Biden's who is currently being sued for over 10,000,000 by a Deutsche Bank executive. Interesting how the media doesn't ask Obama if Biden was vetted? Interesting how they don't seem to be interested in Biden's kids. In his parenting, icluding his daughter who got a DUI in 2002, but they'll plaster Todd Palin's DUI from 1986 all over the news. I don't recall them talking all that much about what Obama was doing in 1986. You know, like the crack he's admitting smoking.

The medeia has shown themselves to be a huge embrassment the last two weeks.

Even with that , McCain outdrew Obama on TV. Palin outdrew him on TV. The RNC outdrew the dems on TV.

Clinton wants Obama to lose. If he wins, she's finished.

If he loses, she's the instant frontrunner for 2012 and should win easily. Obama's political career will be over.

Against McCain in 2012, we will have had 12 yrs of the GOP and a 77yr old man. A Clinton winning after 12 yrs of Republicans. Sound familiar?

Even against Palin, she'd have a very good chance simply based on fatigue and the fact that the dems won't be running a far left black guy in a can't lose election.

Obama losing is really the only thing she and Bill have left if they want back in the WH.

dbp said...

Torn ligament: "Not when it's $300 trillion in debt and owned by the Chinese."

It is actually more like $300 billion that the Chinese hold. I know, petty difference, a "T" where there ought to be a "B". But it does make your figure off by 1,000 fold, or 100,000% if you like percentages.

Simon said...

"If he loses, she's the instant frontrunner for 2012 and should win easily. Obama's political career will be over."

Yep. Remember, Michelle Obama promised us that if we sent her husband packing this year, he'd go away for good. I'm going to hold her to that.

vbspurs said...

Heads up to Althouse readers, and Ann herself:

The meme about Sarah Palin's "showy motherhood" has been constant since her appearance in Dayton.

To dispassionate observers (which I am not) her children have three troubling storylines:

- Down Syndrome baby
- Son in the Army, going to Iraq
- Pregnant unwed daughter

Troubling because they don't know how to attack the first two parts, after unsuccessfully doing so to the third. They are unassailably positive points WRT to her as a human being and therefore, as a candidate.

So they are going after her motivation.

(I think they believe it's clearly not FAIR that she should be parading her kids in the limelight like she has, so she must be doing it for other reasons)

Here is what the diarist says:

I wanted to alert Kossacks to this poignant, but also alarming article that I read over at antiwar.com. The gist of it is a vital one to understand -- that Sarah Palin's role in this campaign fits like a velvet glove over the iron fist of right-wing theocratic populism and that her persona echoes the same television phenomena that the author saw in Iran.

I won't link to the DK article, but here is the original post they quote from an Iranian dissident:

One of the problems the government faced was opposition from legions of mothers whose sons had been maimed or died in the war. To confront this problem, the government-controlled TV would parade a mother whose son had died in the war in front of the TV on a regular basis. Invariably, this "show mom" would be carrying an infant child and a few other siblings with her. And invariably, she would say something to the effect that "I have given one child to this 'sacred' war, and I am ready to give the next one." Almost always, there would be an adoring crowd who would follow her statements by chants of "Allaho-Akbar" (God is Great). And again invariably, her statements would follow by a not-so-veiled threat from her and the adoring crowd. She would say something like "I and my family would not tolerate traitors and betrayals to the faith and country". Then the crowd would break into several standard chants such as "Death to traitors" or "War, war, until victory."

What was the knock on Bush and Cheney? That they had nothing to lose with declaring war, because none of their kids were in danger of being killed in Iraq or Afghanistan?

IMHO, the most "dangerous" political aspect to Sarah Palin is her children. That's why they attacked Bristol first, and now they are going after her son, to be deployed to Iraq in 5 days.

They have to ruin this woman, and soon, before she becomes even more dangerous as a symbol, than she is now.

Cheers,
Victoria

EnigmatiCore said...

"Crazy, but you know, that just might work. Only males can vote... but only females can hold office and govern"

Candidate A is a patriot, who respects the 2nd amendment, wants to cut taxes, and believes in drilling as the primary short-term answer.

Candidate B loves her country but thinks its promise has gone awry, wants to help the poor, and believes that alternative energy is the key.

I vote for the one with the bigger tits.

Torn ligament said...

It is actually more like $300 billion that the Chinese hold. I know, petty difference, a "T" where there ought to be a "B". But it does make your figure off by 1,000 fold, or 100,000% if you like percentages.

The $300.T was referring to just the overall debt. 'Owned by the Chinese', did however refer to the massive debt the Chinese hold on the US...but I can see how it would read as you interpreted it.

Lem said...

it will be because she believes her own chances to have slipped away for good ala Mondale, a Gov of Mass, Gore, Kerry.

Yes Nixon came back to run for president after a loss, but he also had been a vice president. Hillary has only been a Senator and only after Moynahan (God rest his soul) handed her the seat.

EnigmatiCore said...

"If Hillary accepts however, it will be because she believes her own chances to have slipped away for good ala Mondale, a Gov of Mass, Gore, Kerry."

Gore would have won, both the Dem nomination and the general election, in a walk this year.

He didn't run because he is happy and rich and famous and loved without doing so. Two of those would have changed if he ran (the happy and loved) and another (the rich) would have been adversely impacted (as he can make more now than he could as a candidate).

It was his if he felt it was his calling. But enriching himself on the global warming tit, while getting adulation for saving the world, was a bigger draw.

knox said...

“Let me tell you something,” said Luanne Van Werven, a Republican delegate from Lynden, Wash., as the convention closed late Thursday night. “I secretly think Hillary loves Sarah Palin.”

Highly doubt it. I'd guess envy is the main feeling H. has for Palin right now. Whether her resentment of Obama is more powerful than that envy is the question.

Peter V. Bella said...

Interesting how the media doesn't ask Obama if Biden was vetted? Interesting how they don't seem to be interested in Biden's kids.

Obama and Biden said kids and families are off limits. What they actually meant was theirs.

Peter V. Bella said...

Hillary has only been a Senator and only after Moynahan (God rest his soul) handed her the seat.

She is only a senator be cause Rudy dropped out for health reasons and there was only a light weight to replace him. If Rudy stayed in we would be asking Hillary who?

dbp said...

Torn Ligament: "The $300.T was referring to just the overall debt. 'Owned by the Chinese', did however refer to the massive debt the Chinese hold on the US...but I can see how it would read as you interpreted it."

Total US Government debt is under 10 Trillion, so you are still off by 30 fold.

Lem said...

from an Iranian dissident:

It would be interesting to find out what Obama believes vis-à-vis Iran this week.

You would think an Iranian dissident would not want to have to count on Obama as a partner.

Besides looking into how authentic the dissident is, I would also point out that if democrats want to compare McCain and Palin to Ahmadinejad, I think that's a fight we can win.

dbp said...

The "massive" holdings of the Chinese amount to around 3% of our outstanding debt.

vbspurs said...

Another heads up, in case of interest this Saturday night:

Fox News showing a bio piece on Sarah Palin

It started at 8 PM EST.

Huan said...

There was already a rumor that even before the Biden selection Hillary turned down Obama. At that time, there was already a buzz on why Obama was not leading more in the polls. I am sure that Hillary calculated that Obama could lose 08 thus allowing her to run in 12. Had she joined him, and Obama/Clinton wins, she could not run till 16. Undoubtedly she recognizes how difficult it would be for a VP of 8 years to run for PotUS. Thus if Obama/Biden wins she would actually have a better chance of winning in 16 from outside the administration.

This calculus is even more obvious now with Palin.
I would say no chance in hell would Hillary join Obama now.

Meade said...

"I vote for the one with the bigger tits."

Nice try, ECore, but both candidates A and B...

are lesbians.

And in future America...

lesbians rule.

Bruce Hayden said...

Gore would have won, both the Dem nomination and the general election, in a walk this year.

I respectfully disagree. First, he was a bad loser in 2000. Wanting to win, or really believing that he deserved to win, so badly that he would litigate the presidency up to the Supreme Court, amid an attempt to selectively recount in only heavily Democratic counties, while disenfranchising overseas military, just doesn't look good.

But as importantly, regardless of the merits of Global Warming, his hypocrisies there are rampant, ranging from his energy inefficient mansion through his making money on "carbon offsets" and continuing through his gross exaggerations. Oh, and I forgot his family money coming from raping the environment.

My view is that if he had become the Democratic nominee, the election would have been about these hypocrisies. I suspect he knew this, and realized that it would have significantly set back his efforts in that arena.

Lem said...

Gore would have won, both the Dem nomination and the general election, in a walk this year.

There have been all too few exeptions at getting a second shot at the prize.

Gore knows that. BTW The Gores, politics aside, very decent Americans. If Bill had been someone else Gore would have been president.

Tipper showed some guts while they were there.

vbspurs said...

Re: Fox News bio.

A tidbit. She plays the flute. Or was that the recorder?

Lem said...

If Bill had been someone else..

If Bill Had Kept It In His Pants.

Lem said...

There have been all too few exeptions at getting a second shot at the prize.

That's what McCain is facin..

It dosent look good historically for him.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Nice try, ECore, but both candidates A and B...

are lesbians. "

Then I'll just watch. And pay per view if need be.

rhhardin said...

Flute is bad news. Look for trombone, if you want leadership.

Eric said...

Nice try, ECore, but both candidates A and B...

are lesbians.


I dunno if you've taken a spin around the internets latetly, but I don't think this is the problem for men you imagine.

vbspurs said...

Hehe.

I'm sure liberals would've preferred drums. Everyone knows the drummers are the hippest cats, and KWAZY.

keyze911 said...

If Palin was a dem, the media would be slobbering all themselves.

How many puff pieces have I seen about Obama shooting hoops with the troops, or shooting hoops on the trail, or talking about a basketball court in the WH, etc...

Palin actually played basketball competitively(something I dont think Obama ever did), and won a state championship. I wonder how many puff pieces we'll see about that. If she'll be on tv shooting hoops with the media.

And Obama is shown playing basketball in pants. What a loser. Certainly no real athlete. No one plays basketball in pants. He was shown riding his bike wearing jeans. Again, what normal guy, or gal for that matter, rides their bike wearing jeans. I never saw anyone do so until I sae that photo of him.

She runs marathons. Remeber all those puff pieces about Bill Clinton and his jogging and how he's just a regular joe.

She hunts, fishes, I think has a pilot's license. If she was a dem she'd be the second coming of Daniel Boone. You wouldnt hear the end of the fawning.

The bias of the media is palpable.

i can honestly say that this election cycle has the most glaring bias in favor of Obama I've ever seen in any election while at the same time havng the most negative bias I've ever seen in any election against Palin. Maybe Bush in 2004 but I think it's worse against Palin.

And I love how these media bosses say "we're just asking questions/ we're just doing our job".

They've asked no questions about Obama, or Biden. None. They knew about Jeremiah Wright for example form the day Obama announced his candidacy and said nothing about it for over a year until they were forced to by FoxNews and Sean Hannity. The list goes on.

I had to laugh at Chris Matthews ripping John McCain for his houses. Of course, Chris doesn't deem it necessary to tell his viewers he makes over 5 million a year, and has 3 Mercedes's in his driveway in Bethesda.

I just wish they'd be honest abuot it. That the heads of NBC news and CNN and all the rest would just come out and say "Yes, we want Barack Obama to win. 99% of our staff is voting for him. We are doing everything we can to help him win"

Just come clean. Be honest.

Lem said...

Goggle has Obama around 164 million hits, while Palin is only around 12 million.

While Obama has been running for two years Palin has only ran two weeks.

Satchel Paige said "Don't look back someone might be gaining on you."

Obama is looking back at Palin and he's in a panic.

vbspurs said...

Just come clean. Be honest.

This pretense that American journalists have about being "neutral" has got to stop. Own up whenever possible.

Remember when Mary Mapes, the producer who was fired after Rathergate, went on O'Reilly and he asked her:

"Are you a Liberal or Conservative?"

"Well my kids would probably call me VERY conservative."


I was listening to that, and saying "WTF. What a cynical reply."

Today, I was listening to NPR which also prides itself in saying they are neutral in their reporting (smirk). They had on Nate Silver, who runs a polling site.

At the end of the piece, they mentioned that he is openly in favour of Obama winning the Presidency. He wants everyone to know that, because (a) you can reverse engineer his finds if you want to double-check them (b) that there should be more transparency in political reportage.

A-FREAKING-MEN.

Tell you what, I'm much more likely to believe this Nate Silver, than I am Andrea Mitchell.

Meade said...

"If Bill Had Kept It In His Pants."

It wasn't what he didn't keep in his pants. It was what he couldn't keep off his intern's blue dress and off the internets.

Ultimately, it was that he couldn't tell the grand jury the truth about his sexual harassment problem. Hillary can't tell herself the truth about her enabling his sexual harassment problem and that's why, even if she were nominated by her seriously dysfunctional and disordered party, the American voters will never trust her to rule them.

Even if she were a popular internet lesbian.

Lem said...

No one plays basketball in pants.

It's Obama trying to be all things to all people.

McCain and Obama could not be more different.

vbspurs said...

Hey, Governor Lingle of Hawaii is not only a fellow (Republican) governor, but she's a good friend of Palin's.

So her speech was more than symbolic, it was personal. Nice going, Governor Lingle.

keyze911 said...

she plays the flute?

Bill Clinton must be going bonkers

Practicing his best Bacall "you know how to whistle don't you?"

I wouldn't be surprised if he offers to be her chief of staff or special advsior to help her get acclimated to Washington.

who is obama appealing to by wearing pants to shoot hoops? or jeans to ride his bike? the dork vote? even his supporters in the hood had to laugh at that.

I've been to thousands of playgrounds and I've never seen anyone wear pants to play basketball. even in winter. outside. and certainly not inside. and his shirt was tucked in during the game? I mean, what a loser.

Palin should come out and challenge Obama to a game of one on one or horse or a free throw-3 point contest. They could sell ads and donate the money to military families. Obama would probably decline the offer.

He'd probably lose. Wouldnt that be embarrasing.

vbspurs said...

He'd probably lose. Wouldnt that be embarrasing.

Someone's way ahead of you, Keyze.

Hoop Dreams: Palin v. Obama

Hehe.

Lem said...

Today, I was listening to NPR which also prides itself in saying they are neutral in their reporting.

Reminds me of David Mamet

As a child of the '60s, I accepted as an article of faith that government is corrupt, that business is exploitative, and that people are generally good at heart.

These cherished precepts had, over the years, become ingrained as increasingly impracticable prejudices. Why do I say impracticable? Because although I still held these beliefs, I no longer applied them in my life. How do I know? My wife informed me. We were riding along and listening to NPR. I felt my facial muscles tightening, and the words beginning to form in my mind: Shut the fuck up. "?" she prompted. And her terse, elegant summation, as always, awakened me to a deeper truth: I had been listening to NPR and reading various organs of national opinion for years, wonder and rage contending for pride of place. Further: I found I had been—rather charmingly, I thought—referring to myself for years as "a brain-dead liberal," and to NPR as "National Palestinian Radio."


http://tinyurl.com/6jg3vj

Peter V. Bella said...

Remember when Mary Mapes, the producer who was fired after Rathergate

Some years back a combat photographer wrote a book on the exploits of photo-journalists during the Viet Nam war. The title escapes me. Now photographers back then were just like the GIs, except they carried cameras instead of guns. In his book he claimed that Dan Rather and Peter Arnett were roundly detested by the photogs and many other journalists. They were pegged as phonies and were experts at getting info from official sources and doctoring it up instead of going out into the field and risking getting dirty, hurt, or killed like the others were. They even laughed at Rather because he showed off a gun he carried; totally illegal for journalists. They laughed because he did not know which end was up. They hated Arnett. They pegged him for a traitor form the get go.

Terry said...

"i can honestly say that this election cycle has the most glaring bias in favor of Obama".

True that and the other side of that issue is that if Obama wins he will be able to get away with, well anything, and the media will cover for him.

Am I the only one concerned about an Obama presidency that will effectively have little to no media oversight?

David said...

Obama's legs are white. Really. Look at the beach photos. That's why he wears pants.

Plus he listens to Althouse.

Lem said...

NPR, other than 'news' has good stuff.

Ira Glass 'This American Life' is the best radio I listen to.

Preary home companion is not bad either, he does go off into politics sometimes, but it's rare and you know it going in, so it's ok.

Some might argue that it has jumped the shark but... it's radio.. it's supposed to have jumped the shark a long time ago.

vbspurs said...

(Nice inside info, Peter!)

Re: Fox News bio on husband, Todd's role at home.

He is unabashedly happy to help out with the child-rearing, and says that raising a kid is a very tough job.

I'm wondering how this is going to play with some guys. Sure, he works the nightshift at his job, and she brings her kids to work, even little Piper when she was one day old.

But this nation has never had a Mr. Mom at such a high level of exposure.

The more I keep thinking of Keyze's 7:37 post, especially:

If Palin was a dem, the media would be slobbering all themselves.

...the more I know, we all know, that is right.

Not just the media, but the entire political Left-wing would be creaming themselves if she had a "D" for a Party initial, instead of "R".

Remember Mr. Mom with Michael Keaton, or even Dustin Hoffman in Kramer v. Kramer?

Well, those were held up as liberal anthems to the future of American society. Get used to it! It's coming!

And it's come in the form of Todd Palin, the husband of a conservative Republican woman.

I'm not sure what makes me prouder:

The fact that Republicans are taking this in their stride, and actually revelling in it, or that it makes Liberals so but so very uncomfortable -- and therefore unable to compliment them on it.

Cheers,
Victoria

Chip Ahoy said...

I'm becoming an astute investor.

When I first learned Palin was McCain's choice for VP I abruptly bought 160 shares of Kimberly Clark, makers of Depends. That came out to nearly $10,000.00 I expected half the population would be pissing themselves. It's risen steadily, albeit moderately since.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Sometimes investing is quite funny. I can sell any time and enjoy a good laugh.

Lem said...

I wish I could be with you all at FOX, but the Red Sox are playing Texas... As much as I love Palin the Sox are on the verge of a repeat.

Meade said...

Dear Victoria,

As a "Mr. Dad" who was the primary child-rearer in our family, I need to tell you that both the concept of husbands "helping out with" child-rearing and the term "Mr. Mom" are insulting and counterproductive to fathers gaining the freedom to share in all the responsibilities of parenting.

Just so you know.

vbspurs said...

Aww. That's beautiful.

As the daughter of a man who never attended a flute recital or school play of mine, but did change my nappies and was present at my birth before guys did that, I salute you.

As for the nomenclature, that too will come.

Lem said...

Wait a minute...

If Palin is so devastating were is Michele?

"My husband is getting whipped by miss Wasilla? let me go and respond..."

OMG. I'm having palpitations, even with the Red Sox loosing.

Heeeeeere is Michele Obama ;)

Lem said...

Look for Obama to go to Alaska.

Daniel in the lion den thing...

Peter V. Bella said...

Ya know Meade,

Maybe we should start our own movement. We need our rights protected and expanded and we must demand respect. We could call it the Dadist or Fatherist movement. We will demand that Mr. Mom and all the other shameful and demeaning insults are banned from public discussion. We will demand equal pay for equal work. Us dads deserve our own father’s rights bill. We deserve real, effective paid paternity leave any time we need it. It is time for the dads, especially the stay at home dads, of the world to stand up and be counted. We are men and we are strong. It is time to break the spandex ceiling that holds us back from our true potential. Fatherhood is not a choice, it is a privilege. Liberation now!

Dogwood said...

And in future America...

lesbians rule.


So, are they drop-dead gorgeous lesbians, or man-like hirsute types?

The answer is important cause I'm planning a trip to Canada and need to know how long I'm going to be staying, a couple weeks or for life?

Dogwood said...

Fatherhood is not a choice, it is a privilege. Liberation now!

You could always unionize, just think of the fringe benefits you could negotiate into your contract!

Peter V. Bella said...

Lem,
I have a piece of advice for you. Change your ID right now before Trooper finds out. I am only telling you this as an act of humanitarianism. While both Trooper and I think the Red Sox suck, I could care less about the fans. He hates the Red Sox, the fans, and the city of Boston. Save yourself.

BTW, do not under any circumstances mention the Pats.

keyze911 said...

interesting you bring up Michelle. If this election comes down to a choice between Michelle or Sarah for the nest four years, the media's tears will flow like Mt. Aetna.

Same with Cindy vs Michelle.

Interestingly if you look back at pretty much every election since the advent of TV, and were to base the election soley on the first lady, you'd proabbly be able to determine who wins.

Laura Bush vs Theresa and Tipper. Nancy vs whoever. Pat Nixon. even Hillary vs Babs Bush and Liddy Dole.

So, if this election becomes about whether Americans want Sarah Palin and Cindy McCain for the next four years or Michelle Obama, McCain will win easily.

George X. said...

Oh, stop projecting! It's YOU who wants Obama to lose.

Cedarford said...

Chapter #102 in why woman's sufferage might have been a bad idea:

High end eyeglass outlets are reporting that they are mostly out of Sarah Palin's brand and make of eyeglasses. All report women, some with new Sarah Palin hairdos, are flying into the stores to get the Kawasaki #704 titanium frames Palin uses. And after a few initial days of confusion, the outlets know the exact lens size and tint coating used in Palin's frames. Emergency orders are already placed with Kawasaki, but store outlets predict that the demand indicates they may sell out as well.

In Los Angeles, a spokeswoman at Raphaels on Rodeo Drive said "The Palin is the rage." Some women are buying 1200 dollar hair extensions just so their shorter hair can achieve "The Palin Look". The spokeswoman assured the reporter that there isn't some hidden mass of Republicans swarming in. "Each seems honor-bound to say when they want the full 'Palin' they love Obama and will definitely vote for him. Its a matter of critical fashion attire. Few Republicans patronize our shop. I'm sure the Palin craze will go away soon. It won't last like the Aniston.."

Peter V. Bella said...

Dogwood said...
You could always unionize,

Nah, unions are so passé, antediluvian, and anachronistic. Movements are making a big come back. Just think we could have a multi-million dad march on DC. Movements are just the thing right now; they are cool and hip, especially in this political climate of change. We need to start a group with initials. Initials are the way to go. All the hip groups have the. The FLM sounds good; Father’s Liberation Movement. It gives it that, oh, Che kind of South American touchy feely thingy that appeals to people.

Speaking of movements, I will be back in a few.

Lem said...

Change your ID right now before Trooper finds out.

After loosing so many times and finnaly shaking that monkey off our backs (a racist clishe if Obama becomes president) in 2004 you are telling me to go underground?

I think not.

Even if he turned out to be a real trooper ;)

Peter V. Bella said...

I just read on the internet and wikipikidikisiki has confirmed it. The Secret Service will not allow Biden anywhere near main thorough fares and bus routes. He will only be taken down side streets and alleys. All bus traffic will be halted ten miles from any air port he will be going to.

John said...

Palin is the woman every man wants to marry and every woman wants to be. Hillary is the woman send by corporate headquarters to lay off half the staff.

The last person Obama wants attacking or being compared to Palin is Hillary

Dogwood said...

The FLM sounds good; Father’s Liberation Movement. It gives it that, oh, Che kind of South American touchy feely thingy that appeals to people.

I do like the revolutionary sound of FLM, it just rolls off the tongue. We could design some kick butt t-shirts to help brand the movement, then cut some YouTube videos and go viral.

I'm still not giving up on the union thing, though, I mean fringe benefits, work rules that prevent work, I think you're overlooking some major advantages here.

Perhaps the move to unionize could be the movements "going mainstream" moment, after a decade of revolutionary fervor, of course.

Lem said...

..interesting you bring up Michelle. If this election comes down to a choice between Michelle or Sarah for the nest four years, the media's tears will flow like Mt. Aetna.

So why has she been MIA all this time?

A mean streak perhaps? ahh Mean Michele Mama? ahh she never been proud until huby ran Michele?

The door is open.

George said...

Ah, the Kawasaki 704...on every woman's "must have" list for fall '08.

Surely her hairdo won't last as long as the Aniston.

What a great country!

Lem said...

The last person Obama wants attacking or being compared to Palin is Hillary.

When you are desperate you make mistakes.

BTW Notice how Bill Clinton has not appeared in the same room with Obama after the convention... after Palin that vision will only be harder.

Lem said...

Bill Clinton's position Vis-à-vis Palin (seriously) can be best summarized by the Rovadore Jesse Jackson tummy ache.

Not tonight dear... ;)

Lem said...

So why is the question of the evening posed as a Mrs vrs Ms?

That's for our host to know and for us to find out.

Meade said...

You guys are pretty funny but here are a few things Todd Palin could face as the primary parent of five children under the age of 18 while his wife continues her political career, possibly all the way to the White House:

If their children are going to be reared with a full-time parent present, he will need to sacrifice his own career advancement.

Consequently, he will likely earn less income than his spouse.

If he attempts to pursue his goals as competitive snowmobiler, he may be perceived by others as being selfish and irresponsible.

If his spouse commits sexual infidelity and gets caught, he will likely face public ridicule and humiliation and will have to decide for himself whether her adultery constitutes a deal-breaker leading to a highly public divorce or something he can live with in order to help her hold on to political power with the possibility that he himself may run for high office sometime in the future.

If his wife becomes President, people may refer to him as Mr. First Lady.

mcg said...

Oh, geez, this is hilarious.

http://moovealong.org/

Check out the "Osama/Binladen 2008" sticker.

OsAMA
BInlaDEN

get it?

zeek said...

Palin, like a lot of Paglia-esque women, got where she is on her own merits. Rodham, like a lot of "But it isn't fair" feminists, got where she is because of her husband, who lets her act like she did it herself. Conservative strong women tend to look nicer and actually like men. Lefty feminist women tend toward the bland appearance and blame men.

Peter V. Bella said...

Dogwood said...
I'm still not giving up on the union thing, though, I mean fringe benefits, work rules that prevent work, I think you're overlooking some major advantages here.

We get all we need through legislation. Mandated by good old Uncle Sam. Unions get too corrupt and branch out into all kinds of weird shit like the environment, the rights coffee bean pickers, etc. We get laws passed. lobbying and being the largest special interest group is way cooler than being in a union.

Plus, laws are almost always for ever. Union shit has to be renogotiated.

FLM Forever!!!!!!!!

Peter V. Bella said...

Meade,
look, Meade, you have to jump on this FLM movement. We need guys like you; btdt got sprayed in the face kind of guys.

We could get Todd Palin on our side too. He would be the role model for the cause.

FLM forever!!!!!

Lem said...

If their children...
Consequently, he
If he attempts to
If his spouse commits
If his wife becomes


According to forces we have yet to understand, for only the first time after Ferraro all of those hypotheticals are worth exploring.

Will it be a cause of celebration or just another Cause célèbre?

Meade said...

No thanks, Peter B., but I appreciate your comedy.

David said...

Total US debt, including state, federal, business, household and financial debt, is about $50 trillion. Given that GDP is about $15 trillion, that's basically nothing; about as scary as making $150,000 and owing a total of $500,000 between your mortgage, student loans and credit cards.

Peter V. Bella said...

zeek said...
Palin, like a lot of Paglia-esque women, got where she is on her own merits. Rodham, like a lot of "But it isn't fair" feminists, got where she is because of her husband, who lets her act like she did it herself. Conservative strong women tend to look nicer and actually like men. Lefty feminist women tend toward the bland appearance and blame men.

Zeek,
You just solved the mystery that has plagued this thread. You get the ears and the tail. It is the why Ms. Palin vs why Mrs. Clinton. You explained it succinctly and specifically.

Synova said...

I agree with you guys on the Mr. Mom thing, but then I've always had a bit of an attitude about how "Mom" is supposed to indicate value, when, in fact, anyone can do it simply by getting herself knocked up. I'm more concerned with motherhood as a relationship, which is what it actually indicates. And that goes for fatherhood, too. Having those relationships... either children or with our siblings or our own parents doesn't make us better people... it makes us *richer* people.

Having homeschooled for many years I've met a whole lot of men who are intimately involved, by choice, in the lives of their children. It doesn't seem unusual to me. Or un-manly.

I'm sure Todd Palin will be fine doing his own thing while his wife does her own thing and they raise their family together. I doubt either sees the other as an accessory to their own life, which allows independence and support rather than competition. "Is he below my station? Does she think she's better than me? Is he worthy of me?"

And I wonder how much all of this political stuff has to do with reproduction, or denying it. And I wonder if we'll look back and identify reproduction as the essential societal question. Is abortion about women's autonomy, or is it about viewing reproduction as damaging and children as unwelcome? Is the thing with the poor career ladies unable to find men in New York City (as Ann links to often enough) about denying the essential "mating" of humans to reproduce and rather than looking for some good biology, insisting on good portfolios?

Why do *liberal* women need men who are richer, better looking, and have better careers?

Is the real difference, attitudes about the value of people for the sake of people?

Both Palins obviously *like* humans. Wishing your child would have either waited to have sex or been more careful about birth control doesn't change at all the overall mindset of welcome toward the new life. Because motherhood doesn't make a woman better... children make us *richer*, born in season or out.

I know I'm munging different ideas all together so I'm sure this made no sense... just abstracts floating about in my head trying to come together.

Lem said...

Conservative strong women tend to look nicer and actually like men. Lefty feminist women tend toward the bland appearance and blame men.

Generalizations, but as generalizations go "could we go one day w/o one"? from an academy award film.

former law student said...

But regardless; the current situation with failing banks, the mortgage crisis, (just how may bailouts can the government afford?) the auto industry tanking, oil costs....the only ones doing well are the oil companies.

In many ways, Bush's second term has been just as bad as Carter's single term. The only difference is that under Carter, interest rates were so high (caused by inflation) that few could afford to become first-time homeowners.

Where is the Reagan that can pull us out of the deep kimchi we're in?

Beth said...

Sorry to hijack this thread, one I'd do well to read and comment in, but I am tired and want to say WE'RE HOME!

Power came back yesterday, we hit the road this morning. Found the cable on, no damage. But I left a small watermelon on the counter in the kitchen. I knew there was something I forgot. That was nasty but it's all cleaned up now.

If I can light the water heater, I'm in tall cotton.

Nobody mention Ike for at least a day, please.

former law student said...

Why do *liberal* women need men who are richer, better looking, and have better careers?

At first, many don't. But they get tired of pulling what they believe is more than their share of the load.

zeek said...

Lem, I believe the line from The Big Chill was about "rationalizations."

Synova said...

"Conservative strong women tend to look nicer and actually like men."

This is a little what I'm thinking about. Is it liking men, though, or is it liking humans? Including men!

Liking humans... liking men... liking children.

And disliking *men* is just substitution because it's not *men* who have oppressed women... it's biology. Those pesky things called "pregnancy" and "nursing." But actually admitting that babies are the enemy isn't something that's going to fly. So abortion isn't about the oppression of children (even though it is), it's about the oppression of *men* who want to control women's bodies.

But conservative women don't hate *men* because they don't have any hatred of *children* to divert to a more acceptable target.

Lem said...

Where is the Reagan that can pull us out of the deep kimchi we're in?

McCain dances to the beat of a different drum.

Fight for what’s right for our country.

Fight for the ideals and character of a free people.

Fight for our children’s future.

Fight for justice and opportunity for all.

Stand up to defend our country from its enemies.

Stand up for each other; for beautiful, blessed, bountiful America.

Stand up, stand up, stand up and fight. Nothing is inevitable here. We’re Americans, and we never give up. We never quit. We never hide from history. We make history.


We got into the financial mess we are in, we can get ourselves out.

Maybe not as as eloquent as Reagan, but somewhat Reagan.

reader_iam said...

People always want change on the backs of others. They always have, and they always will. What's new about that? Why do people think there is something new about that?

Why do people think their own iterations of that are so different than those of others? Why do they think their very iterating is different? Why do they think the act of iterating is different? Why do they think the tendency, nay impulse, nay compulsion, to iterate is different? Why do they think they're fundamentally different, at all, at all? Why do they think their branding of human nature is unique or transcendent? Why do they think their branding=brand? Why do they think the nature of human nature is beside the point?

Only askin'.

Synova said...

I asked, why do liberal east coast career women need men who are richer, etc.,

"At first, many don't. But they get tired of pulling what they believe is more than their share of the load."

If the only *load* being measured is income, then I'm sure you're right.

If a person values other things, they use other measures for figuring the load.

Synova said...

Beth, I'm so glad you're home and well!

Lem said...

Lem, I believe the line from The Big Chill was about "rationalizations."

Right, shame on me, haven't seen it again in a long time.

Simon said...

Beth, welcome home! :D

I'd like to add that Pat, my co-blogger at SF, lives in Baton Rouge, LA, and came home from the GOP convention to find a tree through his house. I'm sure he'd appreciate thoughts and prayers leaning on the insurance companies.

Peter V. Bella said...

I know I'm munging different ideas all together so I'm sure this made no sense... just abstracts floating about in my head trying to come together.

You are not munging. You are describing what is considered normalcy. Something the leftist ideologues are against.

MC said...

If Obama loses, people will point to him passing over Hillary as a key moment, and that will be discussed often, which will boost Hillary's importance in the eyes of her pary.

If Obama wins, then Hillary was not necessary and her party has been shown they can ignore her.

I can't help but think that if Hillary has aspirations for reaching the whitehouse, she would prefer Obama to lose.

Beth said...

Simon, I'm sorry to hear about Pat's misfortune (I meant to respond to that news earlier, but got busy). The main thing I would recommend is that he be tenacious with the insurance company, and also with the contractors involved. If he can check their references, he should, and he shouldn't agree to give up a lot of money up front. Some friends went through two tree contractors before getting one removed from their porch after Katrina. The first one left them high and dry after disappearing over and over to take on other jobs.

Good luck, Pat!

Peter V. Bella said...

"The question is, will Mrs. Clinton fight Ms. Palin to help her former rival, Mr. Obama?"


Only if Nancy Pelosi orders her to. Ms. Pelosi is the real powerhouse in the Democratic Party now. Not Bill, not Barak, not Dean, not Reid; who she has emasculated, and definitely not Hillary.

Ms. Pelosi calls the shots; quietly with an iron fist in a velvet glove. That is the call Hillary is waiting for. A call from the one woman who would not support her during the primary season. The one woman that controls her future and the future of all elected Democrats.

Synova said...

And I suppose this is supposed to be about Mrs. Clinton and Ms. Palin...

But I think that's another reason that Clinton wouldn't do well as Obama's designated Palin attack-dog... certainly no better than he can do himself... (And shouldn't Biden be the one to address the problem of Palin?)

Clinton can't attack Palin on the issue of motherhood (or liking humans!) any more than a man could do. And that's the primary thing that people are reacting so strongly against... that Palin personifies *all* feminist attributes except for *one*.

She's a breeder.

Spread Eagle said...

In many ways, Bush's second term has been just as bad as Carter's single term.

You obviously don't remember Carter's term.

Much as people who spent the last 7 years calling Bush Hitler are clueless about Hitler.

Lem said...

You are describing what is considered normalcy. Something the leftist ideologues are against.

Patience is not just a virtue is a must.

My best friend is a liberal. Smart at what he does as smart could be; has a bunch of letters after his name (the latest LLED) but politically his critical thinking seems to take a leave of absence.

We are still good friends though.

Brent said...

Glad you're safe at home Beth!

Pogo said...

"Glad you're safe at home Beth!"

Megadittoes, Beth =)

Lem said...

Ms. Pelosi calls the shots; quietly with an iron fist in a velvet glove.

Pelosi (#3 on line) could not sell that she needed a plane that could fly all the way to her district w/o refuelling. (her first test)

Under Pelosi approval ratings for the house are the lowest ever.

Simon said...

Lem, that was the part of McCain's speech that I was happiest with, in terms of the nexus between delivery and writing, but it wasn't the most important part. The most important part was that he was candid: we, as a party, screwed up. It wasn't that our ideals were wrong, or that our policies were wrong: it was that the people we sent to Washington on our behalf were the wrong people. The speech would have been a real failure without that admission, I think.

Lem said...

The most important part was that he was candid: we, as a party, screwed up. It wasn't that our ideals were wrong, or that our policies were wrong: it was that the people we sent to Washington on our behalf were the wrong people.

I know, the burden of proof is heavy on McCain.

This is not offered as an excuse but Reagan set the bar very high (were it should be) I dont know if we can still blame 43 though.

I think he has done the best he could.

Beth said...

Arrghh! I've been dittoed. What a Rush!

Thanks, all. And goodnight.

Peter V. Bella said...

Spread Eagle said...
You obviously don't remember Carter's term.

I do. I made a solemn vow. Jimmy Carter is the sole reason I will never, and never is a long time, vote Democratic. Remember those almost 19% mortgage rates? Talk about a housing crisis! He demonstrated all that is wrong then and today with the Democratic Party:

Cowardice
No knowlege of Economics
No knowlege of international affairs.
Disregard for the military and intelligence establishments.
High regard for terrorists.
No regard for working people.
No regard for business.
No regard for energy.
Plagued by scandals and had a so what attitude.
No regard for the rising crime rate.
No regard for the massive drug smuggling.
No regard for the hostages in Iran.
No regard for anything at all.

Jimmy Carter hated people, the people, Americans. He still does.

That man was an abject failure, a coward, and he disgraced this country. He made us the laughing stock of the world. They say we have no respect internationally now? Under Carter we were the clowns of the world.

Lem said...

..it was that the people we sent to Washington on our behalf were the wrong people.

I hope history will be kind to 43..

Peter V. Bella said...

Lem,
She is still the most pwoerful Democrat. If she had come ou for Hillary, Hillary would have been the nominee. She stayed on the sidelines and quietly worked for Obama. Go back and look at what she said. Pelosi runs that party.

Michael said...

“Sarah’s smile is sincere, which I never felt from Hillary, who has anger and resentment in her eyes,” said Ann Schmuecker, a delegate from Mountain Home, Arkansas, where she met the Clintons decades ago."

Golllllleeeeee, guess we all better vote for Palin, uh, McCain then.

She sounds sooooooooo much nicer and all.

Good lord...give-me-a-break.

Trooper York said...

No worries Lem. As I have said many times I am not in law enforcement. ALthough a big fat Irish looking guy eating a donut is always assumed to be a cop. My screen name is based on a character in Rio Grande one of my favorite John Wayne movies.

And I won't sweat if the Sox repeat. Although I don't think that is going to happen. They lost their mojo when they traded Manny.

I never really had high hopes for the Yankees even though I thought they would do better than they did. It would be too much to ask for to get both the Yankees and the Giants to be WORLD CHAMPIONS.

Oh and who did we beat. BOSTON!!!!!

BOSTON SUCKS

BOSTON SUCKS

BOSTON SUCKS

Trooper York said...

Beth I hope the frankfurter dog is all right. Thank God you are safe.

Try not to watch the Saints on Sunday. That will be a real disaster.

Lem said...

If she had come ou for Hillary, Hillary would have been the nominee. She stayed on the sidelines and quietly worked for Obama. Go back and look at what she said. Pelosi runs that party.

This is the elephant (the democratic elephant) in the room. Until Palin, Obama has bien able and all too willing to use serepticiously, under the radar, use his status (presumably higher than Hillary) as a force to be reckoned with. Just ask Bill - the first black president and ask Jesse, who's not nuts over Obama.

Nancy is San Francisco, not known for political subdelty. Nancy saw how the wind was blowing and it coincided nicely with their off-the-shelve narrative.

"It's our time" - Obama.

Lem said...

BOSTON SUCKS

In the long history of baseball no team had ever droped 4, four, after being ahead 3-0

Sorry ;)

Trooper York said...

Hey the Yankees have every record one time or another, even the shitty ones. I still would rather have our history than Bostons.

You guys are on top right now. Enjoy it cause it ain't gonna last.

Trooper York said...

It's not just the team that sucks,
it's the city as well. I spent a year there one afternoon.

They had some shit called the Big Dig
going on and every thing was dirty and disgusting and coming from New York, that takes a lot for me to say that.

Synova said...

"Good lord...give-me-a-break."

Why?

People are attracted to Obama for reasons of their emotional reactions to him. It's not even a *bad* way to make decisions most of the time.

I know that I react very strongly to Sarah Palin. Not that *liking* her is going to over-ride policy issues. Or that wanting, *badly*, to stick the liberal/feminist/conservatives-are-haters nose in it by electing a woman to the vice presidency before they do is going to over ride policy issues.

But it doesn't have to because her faults seem the common sort and her strengths are the ones I want to see.

TRundgren said...

I heard that Obama referred to Ms. Palin as a c_nt.

Not sure if it's true but it needs to be investigated.

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