September 25, 2008

"No convention today!... OK, it's on!... The economy's sound... No, wait, it's going to fall apart unless I go to Washington tomorrow!... "

"We need a commission!... We need to fire somebody!... Get me Andrew Cuomo!... I want ten more debates!... But let's postpone the one we've scheduled!... Do you get the impression a McCain presidency would be a bit exhausting?..."

Mickey mocks McCain.

223 comments:

1 – 200 of 223   Newer›   Newest»
Donn said...

Oh, I see. Today is Ann's day to bash McCain/Palin. Got it. Should bring out all the lefty trolls even more than usual.

Freder Frederson said...

An Althouse first! A post critical of McCain.

How about that Palin! So quick on her heels when asked what McCain has done to reform Wall Street.

1jpb said...

exhausting?

I'd go with ungrounded and whimsical.

Concerned Citizen said...

Professor—

You omit Kaus's next paragraph—

"P.S.: Remember Tom Wolfe's description of a fighter pilot's decision-making protocol: "I've tried A! I've tried B! I've tried C!"

The fighter pilot is well-disciplined enough in the face of crisis to remember to try A, B, and C.

"As to just what this ineffable quality [the right stuff] was. . .well, it obviously involved bravery. But it was not bravery in the simple sense of being willing to risk your life... any fool could do that... No, the idea... seemed to be that a man should have the ability to go up in a hurtling piece of machinery and put his hide on the line and then have the moxie, the reflexes, the experience, the coolness, to pull back in the last yawning moment – and then to go up again the next day, and the next day, and every next day... There was ... a seemingly infinite series of tests. ... a dizzy progression of steps and ledges, a ziggurat, a pyramid extraordinarily high and steep; and the idea was to prove at every foot of the way up that pyramid that you were one of the elected and anointed ones who had the right stuff and could move higher and higher and even – ultimately, God willing, one day – that you might be able to join that special few at the very top, that elite who had the capacity to bring tears to men's eyes, the very Brotherhood of the Right Stuff itself."

What crises has Sen. Obama lived through, much less handled in a leadership capacity?

Where is his PT-109?

UWS guy said...

Maybe, concerned citizen a fighter pilot is less suited to the job of being the helmsman of the ship of state than a slow, calm, and deliberate constitutional scholar.

McCain seems to imagine that everything hurling his way is a missile about to shoot him out of the sky and reacts appropriately.

L. E. Lee said...

John McCain is in some ways a political tragic figure. His situation reminds me of Hubert Humphrey in 1968. McCain can not shake the albatross that others in his party placed on him. I am shocked that McCain has not been saying the following-

"This mess is what you get when you allow elections and our government to be sold to the highest bidder and that highest bidder is always Wall Street. We need serious campaign finance reform so that this never happens again. I was for campaign finance reform before it was fashionable. I am after all, the McCain in 'McCain-Feingold'."

But in order to gain the Republican nomination last year he had to shed all of the traits that would have made him attractive right now.

integrity said...

""No convention today!... OK, it's on!... The economy's sound... No, wait, it's going to fall apart unless I go to Washington tomorrow!... ""


Reminds me of the movie "Airplane".

Fen said...

less suited to the job of being the helmsman of the ship of state than a slow, calm, and deliberate constitutional scholar

Perhaps. But who is this "constitutional scholar" you're talking about?

Oh, I love the way you had to phrase that to make Obama seem more credible as a leader. Thanks for the morning chuckle.

Hoosier Daddy said...

How about that Palin! So quick on her heels when asked what McCain has done to reform Wall Street.

Freder, can you honestly make such a comment in good faith when Biden is out trying to make the lame walk and invoking FDR's televised speeches on the 1929 crash?

Or is stupidity just a given for your side?

j said...

No, I have held the impression that Kaus is a jerk since he felt it was necessary to take a cheap shot at the Palin baby. It appears that Kaus is an Andi Sullivan wannabee.

erniecu73 said...

Donn said...
Oh, I see. Today is Ann's day to bash McCain/Palin. Got it. Should bring out all the lefty trolls even more than usual.

10:27 AM


I just got all my vaccinations updated in anticipation of that.

chickenlittle said...

Do you get the impression a McCain presidency would be a bit exhausting?

Honestly? No. Kaus has gotten tiresome though for this Californian. Plus he personifies the adage that politcs is Hollywood for ugly people.

Althouse neutrality is cruel but it still rocks!

Matt said...

McCain is bashing himself. This is one of the crudest political moves in recent memory. All he is going to do is go to DC for a photo-op and pretend he is part of the negotiations. Why? Because he is betting the American people are dumb enough to think he is the Lone Ranger when, frankly, no one in DC wants him [or Obama] there now.

veni vidi vici said...

AS one who's not particularly enamored of the idea of having any senator, much less these two knuckleheads, be our next CIC, I expect whoever the next doofus-in-chief to be tedious.

Standing in line yesterday with CNN on the television playing Obama's news announcement about how it was he who made the call to McCain, etc. (whatever happened to "It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit"?), and I was struck by the slow-speaking, heavily punctuated by "uh" etc. The guy was reading the equivalent of a prepared statement and couldn't even get that accomplished efficiently.

My guess is, Obama indulges in a lot of that slowpoke speak and all the "uh, aah, uh" bullshit because someone told him it makes him sound erudite and professorial. That's assuming he really is as smart as everyone says he is (and the academic credentials seem to give no reason to doubt his brains). If I'm right, he's a pathetic hack, just like the standing-on-shifting-sands McCain.

Obama did get seriously pantsed on this one by McCain, though. And if McCain shows up at the debate tomorrow night after having led this deal through on the hill, and the debate is on foreign policy as advertised and McCain holds his own, it will be quite impressive regardless of how the media characterizes it.

I'm more and more convinced that whoever it was the other day talking about Obama's 2007/8 campaign merely being staging for '12 that went farther than he or anyone involved expected is onto something. Nonetheless, he's here and now, so it's his moment to show what he's prepared to do. He's definitely got a rather mixed record to date in the campaign. If he wins, pray he'll do better.

Sofa King said...

I'll be honest here:

I'm simply sick of mockery. It seems to be all that most people have to offer, and in the end, mockery cannot solve anything, only action capable of being mocked can.

"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things." -TR

1jpb said...

The fighter pilot is well-disciplined enough in the face of crisis to remember to try A, B, and C.

Presumably they will also remember D, E, F.....

But, what will McCain do if he needs twenty seven options?

rhhardin said...

You want McCain's hand on the stick of the high performance jet of state.

Sloanasaurus said...

Originally, this story started out as Obama trying to bait McCain into making a joint statement about economy. it's ended up with McCain going on offense about fixing the problem

Althouse shows her naivete on economics here with these posts. But, that's okay I am sure she would admit to not knowing much about this issue.

This really is a nasty economic crisis. Right now, banks don't lend cash to each other anymore. Something needs to be done right away about it otherwise the bank failures will begin in earnest and people will find that all of sudden the credit they have been taking for granted from cash machines to credit cards to car loans to student loans all of a sudden is no longer available.

Everyday many Americans rely on this available credit to bail themselves out of their own personal crises. What will happen to them if they can't use their credit cars all of a sudden.

McCain is right to treat this as the crisis that it is. Obama is wrong to be feckless about it.

downtownlad said...

This absolutely is a first for Ann. I don't recall an anti-McCain post either before this.

Anyway, I think McCain would be taking risks all over the place. It's got to be 99% likely that we'd attack Iran. Probably 50% likely that we'd take military action against Russia.

Just because it's risky doesn't mean his administration would be a disaster. If this risks pay off, he could be one of the greatest Presidents ever. If they don't pay off, he could also lead us into World War III. That's what happens when you gamble. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose.

Matt said...

veni vidi vici
What universe are you in? McCain will not be doing any leading on the hill because he is not on any of the committees involved in the negotiations. He will not be sitting in meetings today for 12 hours. He is pretending and playing a political game. He wants to take credit though so his poll numbers can go back up. But even if he was part of the negotiations he could still get to the debates because the Senate will be closed by 8pm. Obama gets it. BTW Obama's press conference was a thing of beauty. He even took questions. Something McCain doesn't do anymore.

Lisa said...

You know what bothers me with all these accusations taht McCain just suddenly jumped on this issue is that we are all ignoring the gorilla in the room.

Congress is set to adjourn Friday. If there is going to be a bailout or any kind of plan, it has to be done before they adjourn. McCain realized that wasn't likely to happen and realized someone needed to act, so he did.

Congress is hemming and hawing, not wanting to take the blame for this with the election coming up. Someone has to provide some leadership because Reid and Pelosi sure as hell aren't.

McCain made the right decision. Shame Obama can't even follow him.

Eric said...

Yes, Lee, it's so tragic the top five recipients of Fannie Mae money were Democrats, including Obama at #2. If there's any single person responsible for this mess it's Christopher Dodd, whether or not his fellow Democrats want to face it.

Bob said...

This episode illustrates the fundamental difference between McCain and Obama. McCain's bias is to Act. Obama's bias is to Think. There are situations where one bias is better than the another. Question now is what do you prefer and how do you feel about each candidate's respective decision making?

knox said...

Look, we're talking about John McCain. This is what he does, for better or for worse. He's been driving people on both sides of the aisle crazy for a long time now. I do not blame Obama supporters for being annoyed, and probably President Bush wasn't too happy about being told what to do either.

Basically, downtownlad is exactly right. This sort of personality can make for a great leader... or a great mess. We'll just have to see.

Roger J. said...

A constitutional scholar? That might have cost me a monitor!

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lem said...

If McCain has been exhausting..

What has the only president we’ve got been?

Henry said...

Matt wrote: McCain will not be doing any leading on the hill because he is not on any of the committees involved in the negotiations.

I think McCain's stunt is more ridiculous than brilliant, but I think you're wrong to say he can't do anything. Potentially he's the future president. No senator wants to get on the wrong side of a new president for no good reason.

Michael said...

This has to go down in history as one of the most blatant pandering ploys in American politics.

The Timeline: Obama calls McCain in the morning, to suggest a joint statement, waits for a return call, gets a "message" that McCain is okay with the statement, but would like to postpone the debate.

BEFORE Obama can reach McCain to discuss a possible delay of the debate, McCain unilaterally announces he's postponing the debate...

...and miracle of miracles...McCain suddenly has time fo an interview with Katie Couric...and a nice photo-op at the White House.

This leaves Mississippi and the University of Mississippi holding the bag on over 5 million dollars in money spent, 2 years of planning and now he wants to also postpone the V.P. debate.

First of all the discussion and debate overthe bailout has been ongoing for over ten days, therehave been all kinds of meetings among the principals in government...and out of nowhere, McCain announces he has to be there so things can be settled?

Based on WHAT?

And if he really believed tat, why was he at a solar panel plant the day before the announcement, never even mentioning the "crisis."

And where the hell was he over the past ten days? He knew what was developing, between AIG, Lehman Brothers and others, there were all kinds of problems to deal with...if he thought he HAD TO BE THERE.

THIS is the ma most here want running our country??

Matt said...

Sloanasaurus
How does Althouse shows her naivete on economics here with these posts?
Don't you realize that a plan is already in the works and about to be signed? There is little McCain can do [or had done] except appear to be involved in the process.
And is this not the time to have a debate and talk about these important issues? It should be noted that McCain admitted as of Tuesday that he had not even read the Paulson plan. It is three pages long! This is a serious issue, yes. But McCain's act is political.

Michael said...

Lisa said..."Congress is set to adjourn Friday. If there is going to be a bailout or any kind of plan, it has to be done before they adjourn."

That's not true.

They can continue as long as they want, and have done so on many, many occasions over the years.

L. E. Lee said...

Eric,

I of course reject you analysis about Obama. I am also sick of the back and forth about who has taken more money from Wall Street. Clearly, everyone elected has taken too much.

But please answer the question do you now recognize the need for campaign finance reform?

Concerned Citizen said...

Michael--

"THIS is the ma most here want running our country??"

Do you mean Palin? Glad to hear it.

--

Consider what Sen. Obama was doing when McCain made his announcement....He was resting, prepping for the debate.

One man is trying to literally make himself look good, the other is trying to do something, while risking making himself appear foolish.

Michael said...

rhhardin said..."You want McCain's hand on the stick of the high performance jet of state."

You mean like the other jets he crashed?

He's even been criticized for his decision making on the mission in which he crashed and was captured.

bjm said...

The fighter pilot is well-disciplined enough in the face of crisis to remember to try A, B, and C.

Presumably they will also remember D, E, F.....

But, what will McCain do if he needs twenty seven options?


Firstly it would be helpful if you actually understood the concept of the OODA loop before made such a stupid comment. Perhaps you should return to troll central for reprogramming.

I like Kaus a lot, but he's missed the mark badly on this one.

CBS News reports that John McCain suspended his campaign as a response to a call from Henry Paulson to rescue the bailout plan, which would have headed for defeat without his leadership. Bob Schieffer reported this morning that McCain flew back to Washington to help reach a compromise that would allow Republicans to support a form of bailout, and that without his help, efforts to resolve the crisis would have collapsed:

Interestingly the CBS News web site doesn't have the clip but you can see it at Newsbuster's:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2008/09/25/schieffer-paulson-warned-bailout-would-fail-unless-mccain-got-invo

Matt said...

Henry
All McCain can really do is attempt to rally the Republican troops to support or deny the plan. Sure, that is not nothing. However just by him [and Obama] being there they inject presidential politics into the whole thing. BTW according to observers out there McCain's ads are still running - so I don't think he has really suspended anything. We are 40 days out from an election. Everything the candidates do is [and will be seen as] purely political.

Henry said...

Don't you realize that a plan is already in the works and about to be signed?

You think getting something signed is easy?

Easier you wrote: frankly, no one in DC wants him [or Obama] there now.

All the more reason for McCain and Obama to be there. One of them is going to get handed this mess. It makes sense for them to get in the mix. And they are Senators, the two of them, after all.

I evaluate McCain's act at about equal parts grandstanding, political oneupsmanship, pent-up kinetic energy, and desire to do the right thing. 25% each.

As for Obama and his big idea of a joint statement, it just makes me wonder. Is he running for president or running for figurehead?

Michael said...

Between Bush, Paulson and others, everybody knows they're acting in concert for their candidate.

When has anybody ever heard of a "candidate" calling a sitting President and suggesting he come in to "save the day?" (Especially someone who hasn't even been involved in any of the negotiations or discussions.)

It's patently ridiculous and nothing more than a political move to shore up his base...and take attention away from his sudden plummet in the polls.

Michael said...

Speaking of McCain...the fighter pilot:

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon.

"Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat.

There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison.

The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

Pogo said...

Ain't much McCain can do at this point. Polls are mixed (though the pollsters are mostly as ununtrustworthy as the NYTimes et al), and I expect the media putsch will at last succeed and we will have not only the first black President, but one who is even more of a socialist than FDR.

The GOP will be blamed for the economy, facts aside. But that animus will last only one year at the most. Obama will have no way to climb out of it using socialism or Keynes. FDR proved that. But he will try.

So I am betting that we will see a depression again, maybe not capital D, but a depression, a global one. And this one will be difficult and last a long time because the temptation of the left to intervene will be too great.

My plan?
Purchase nothing but necesseties.
Get ready for the long haul.
The left has pwned America, and it will stay pwned for decades as a result.

bearbee said...

Hugo Chavez calls Bush a Socialist.

I know HC is a commenter on Althouse.

Hey Hugo, did you really call Bush 'comrade'?

The U.S.'s chief antagonist in the region, self-declared revolutionary socialist President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, said his oil-based economy is insulated from the U.S. crisis by its growing detachment from ``this perverse financial system.''

He mocked Bush for using government funds to bail out private companies. The Bush administration is seeking congressional authority to buy as much as $700 billion in bad investments from financial firms to unfreeze the U.S. financial system.

``I nationalize strategic companies and get criticized, but when Bush does it, it's OK,'' Chavez said on weekly television program Sept. 21. ``Bush is turning socialist. How are you, comrade Bush?''

Matt said...

Henry
Well I appreciate you admitting that part of McCain's action is grandstanding and political oneupsmanship. I would also agree a joint statement doesn't do anything. Both Obama and McCain can have influence, again, by rallying votes and such for or against the plan. But I really do think they need to stay on the campaign trail. McCain's act may have been in good faith but I honestly think he is doing it to boost his appeal among voters who think he doesn't get it. I'm not sure the voters will be fooled. And, again, the debates can still go on. They are Friday night when Senate is not in session. Then they can head back to DC Saturday morning and get involved again - although they won't be in the closed door meetings.

Henry said...

Oh Jeezus, Michael, if you're going to post twice in a row, at least stay on topic. And don't post crap that Doyle and Freder have already run into the ground.

Anyway, you wrote When has anybody ever heard of a "candidate" calling a sitting President and suggesting he come in to "save the day?"

Is this what happened? Or was it the other way around? A lame duck president couldn't get his own party to rally for his own plan, so he went to the only guy who has a hammer. It's interesting, when you read history, to see how much pain Presidents can inflict on individual congresspeople. FDR and LBJ both were brilliant at it.

Henry said...

Matt, I agree that postponing the debates was a silly flourish. Switching them to economic issues was a much better idea -- let the candidates discuss the plan they are pushing.

Every politician is a mash-up of cynical opportunism and idealistic purpose. The are others as obvious and unhindered as McCain, but he's up there.

Michael said...

Henry asks: "Is this what happened?"

So you think the President called John and asked him to help out? None of this has ANYTHING to do with the Republicans helping out a fellow Republicans?

John McCain is going to roll into town, push everybody who's been working on this 24 hours a day for over a week now...and make the deal?

Right.

*As for my posting you say is off topic, it was a response to Hardy-Boy who referred to McCain's expertise as a pilot being a reason he should be President.

TMink said...

Sofa wrote: "I'm simply sick of mockery. It seems to be all that most people have to offer,"

Agreed. I am sick of it from both sides.

I guess when there is little substance some people try to substitute drama and slander.

Trey

mcg said...

John McCain is going to roll into town, push everybody who's been working on this 24 hours a day for over a week now...and make the deal?

If Reid and Emmanuel are to be believed, the Dems are worried that McCain will demagogue the bailout plan if he hasn't explicitly endorsed it. They want his support as political cover. Republicans are reluctant to support the bailout as well if McCain is going to be against it.

Seems to me that puts McCain in an (un?)enviable position of power here, the ability to demand certain compromises from both sides of his own choosing, and then get behind a bipartisan result.

Hoosier Daddy said...

There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison.

This has to be by far the stupidest fucking statment I have seen on this blog and with DTL and Doyle, that is saying a lot. I mean seriously, you're not a troll but rather a stupid fucking cunt and I say that with the most heartfelt sincerity I can muster.

I hope the rest of you do exactly what I do and from now on ignore this piece of shit for what he is.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I hope the rest of you do exactly what I do and from now on ignore this piece of shit (Michael) for what he is.

/fixed for clarification

Michael said...

A bi-partisan deal's in place.

Now what's Mr. McCain going to do?

BBQ at the White House?

David said...

McCain did the right thing to suspend his campaign and focus on the rescue plan. Unfortunately, he did it about a week too late after all of his other gambits on the issue fell flat.

Obama has managed to finesse the issue with platitudes, though he did something substantive today by telling the Congressional leadership that he did not favor putting bankruptcy law changes in the package. That actually took some (not much, but some) political guts--a quality Obama seems to have only in short supply.

McCain has been inconsistent and barely rational on the entire subject. Despite his vaunted experience, he seems out of his depth. Obama may be out of depth too but he has been cautious enough not to flap his yap and show the ignorance. Put more kindly, he has been wise enough not to pretend broad knowledge in an area where more learning is necessary.

The first rule of financial crisis is "do no further harm." McCain, had he been President, would have done lots of harm. Obama, maybe not.

I can't believe I'm writing this. Until the last ten days, I was sure that I would vote for McCain.

No longer. This lifelong Republican (a rare social liberal Republican) is going to vote for Obama.

Michael said...

Hoosier, Why would I care about anything you have to say about me?

You're just another right wing ideologue who listens to and agrees with absolutely nothing but what you already believe.

You don't discuss anything, you just keep throwing out the same right wing bullshit anybody can get from Republican pundits, talk radio or Bush himself.

I lived in Indiana for years and the narrow-minded conservatism is something to behold.

You're just another sycophant whiner with nothing to say.

Concerned Citizen said...

As for Sen. McCain getting himself shot down, I can think of a President who managed to get his warship rammed and sunk.

He used that to help him get elected president.

He was many things, but he was a hero because he kept his head and he got his men safely home.

AJ Lynch said...

Can anyone tell me why a university would spend $5 Million to hold a Prez debate? If that in fact is true.

Doyle said...

McCain did the right thing to suspend his campaign and focus on the rescue plan.

McCain knows squat about the rescue plan. Didn't even read the 3 page version.

Pathetic clown.

Michael said...

Hoosier, and as usual, you apparently cannot read:

I DIDN'T SAY ANY OF IT...I merely provided the quote.

Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs said it.

If you have an issue with Bill Bell, give him a call, I'm sure he'd be happy to hear from you.

Like I said: You just keep spewing forth with the same right wing bullshit.

Michael said...

aj lynch, It is true, and they have spent over 5 million dollars...and have been planning for over two years.

What?

You think they just rent an auditorium. throw up some bleachers and have a debate??

AJ Lynch said...

German Valise said:

"I lived in Indiana for years and the narrow-minded conservatism is something to behold."

Then what went wrong with Hoosier David Letterman?

Daryl said...

Mickey should remember that the Republican Convention went off without a hitch.

Not only did the RNC find an excuse not to have Bush or Cheney speak, but they cut off a day. Compare that to the Democrats' overly-long, unfocused convention.

McCain got a real bump out of his convention. Obama failed to get anything from his, even after his big stupid speech (which, once again, liberals around the world assured us would shock and awe us into submission before The One).

Hoosier Daddy said...

Like I said: You just keep spewing forth with the same right wing bullshit.

Like I said, you're a little fucking cunt.

I DIDN'T SAY ANY OF IT...I merely provided the quote.

Learn to quote better bitch. But yes its nice to hide behind someone else's comments and disavow when confronted.

Oh and I'll send Bill Bell the same email too.

Now again, go fuck yourself.

Doyle said...

McCain got a real bump out of his convention.

Which has since more than dissipated as people realize that he's clueless on the economy and his VP would be a crazy right wing housewife.

mcg said...

OK, Gallup's latest tracking poll has them tied. I'd love to say this is good news for McCain, so I'm going to. But come on, what is with these polls! They are all over the map.

ricpic said...

Rush on how to solve the crisis in one easy step: eliminate the capital gains tax for two years and watch torrents of capital flow into Wall Street.

Makes sense to me. But no, we can't have that. It wouldn't grow the government.

AJ Lynch said...

University claims it will lose $5 MM if debate is cancelled....

Liberals react "Oh what a tragedy! That John McCain is so mean"

Conservatives react "WTF are they spending $5 Million on a debate?!"

Doyle said...

Maverick corruption fighter Sarah Palin won't say whether she supports Ted Stevens's reelection bid, even though he's currently on trial.

Eric said...

I of course reject you analysis about Obama. I am also sick of the back and forth about who has taken more money from Wall Street. Clearly, everyone elected has taken too much.

The fact of the matter is President Bush in 2003 and then John McCain in 2005 proposed rules that would have prevented this mess, and those rules were killed in committee by Christopher Dodd. You can reject all you want, but to pretend this is some kind of Republican mess is to fly in the face of reality. If McCain rather than Obama pays a political price for the economic meltdown it will be a testament to ignorance on the part of the voting public.

But please answer the question do you now recognize the need for campaign finance reform?

No. Every time they go about "reform" we end up with a more corrupt Congress than we had previously. We're in about the fifth "reform" cycle since I started paying attention to politics, and it only gets worse.

The reform I would like to see is a much, much smaller government. There's no reason to bribe your congressman if it doesn't give you a competitive advantage.

Failing that, if anything happense the rules should be simplified so that you can give whatever you want with full disclosure, i.e. every dime is traced to an individual and not a company or PAC.

LarsPorsena said...

And..just how many of you are going to be swayed by what happens at the
debate (if it happens)?

None, is the right answer. So, why the panic over whether it happens or not? Why all the foaming at the mouth about an event that will mean nothing for you personally??

mcg said...

That's kind of weak. Of course we won't be swayed by the debate, but there are still a healthy number of undecideds out there.

AJ Lynch said...

MCG:

I suggest you only read polls at RCP once a week. I have been doing that for the bellwether states (KY, OH, MO & TN). No prez has won in like 40 years without winning these 4 states.

And I look at a few outliers for trends (NC, OR,NV, VA & PA).

So far, McCain has the lead for the last three weeks straight. Trends have been pretty flat. I usually analyze the Saturday's stats.

Donn said...

Michael to Hoosier:
You don't discuss anything, you just keep throwing out the same right wing bullshit anybody can get from Republican pundits, talk radio or Bush himself.

Pot.Kettle.Black. (Of course, from the opposite side of the spectrum)

Doyle said...

Lars -

Just because most blog commenters are decided, doesn't mean the debates don't change any voter's mind.

And as with most things the McCain campaign does, it's the dishonesty that's so galling.

All McCain has to do is do his job as 1 out of 100 senators, and maybe vote if he feels like it (which he’s hardly done in years).

He’s trying to get the VP debate cancelled, so Palin is spared another high-profile humiliation.

Michael said...

Donn: I'm a liberal and have liberal views, but if a Democrat had done what McCain has tried to do this week I would have screamed to high heaven.

I have no idea what has happened to McCain, but he isn't the same man he's been for over20 some years.

I think he wants to be President more than be honest and straight with Americans.

The Palin selection was beyond the pale.

Sloanasaurus said...

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

You left out the 5 1/2 years as a POW.

Michael said...

LarsPorsena said..."And..just how many of you are going to be swayed by what happens at the debate (if it happens)? None, is the right answer."

If you're talking about most of the people here, sure...they'd vote for Bush again.

As for most Americans who haven't made up their minds...I don't believe that. I think the debates will be the deciding factor many more than you think.

Michael said...

Sloan: McCain was a POW?

Who knew?

Has he ever mentioned it?

Michael said...

Hoosier Daddy said..."Learn to quote better bitch."

Let me guess: You bailed out of school right after the 9th grade.

You're such a little cry-baby.

Michael said...

daryl says: "Not only did the RNC find an excuse not to have Bush or Cheney speak..."

This is a plus?

The sitting President and V.P. of your own party?

Good lord...

Michael said...

Hoosier, can we all assume you don't understand what quotation marks are?

And the use of the "c" word tells me you're just another knuckle-dragging redneck.

*What would Queen Sarah say?

Doyle said...

And the use of the "c" word tells me you're just another knuckle-dragging redneck.

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c---"

- John S. McCain

LarsPorsena said...

"If you're talking about most of the people here, sure...they'd vote for Bush again..."

If that is so, why wile your hours here?

mcg said...

Physician heal thyself!

former law student said...

The fact of the matter is President Bush in 2003 and then John McCain in 2005 proposed rules that would have prevented this mess, and those rules were killed in committee by Christopher Dodd. You can reject all you want, but to pretend this is some kind of Republican mess is to fly in the face of reality.

The fact of the matter is that Republicans controlled the Senate Banking committee in 2003 and 2005. To pretend that minority committee member Dodd was responsible for this Republican mess flies in the face of reality. Try Committee Chairman Richard Shelby, instead.


Members of the
Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
109th Congress
Democrats: Republicans:

* Paul S. Sarbanes (Md.), Ranking Member
* Christopher Dodd (Conn.)
* Tim Johnson (S.D.)
* Jack Reed (R.I.)
* Chuck Schumer (N.Y.)
* Evan Bayh (Ind.)
* Thomas R. Carper (Del.)
* Debbie Stabenow (Mich.)
* Robert Menendez (N.J.)



* Richard Shelby (Ala.), Chairman
* Robert Bennett (Utah)
* Wayne Allard (Colo.)
* Mike Enzi (Wyo.)
* Chuck Hagel (Neb.)
* Rick Santorum (Pa.)
* Jim Bunning (Ky.)
* Mike Crapo (Idaho)
* John E. Sununu (N.H.)
* Elizabeth Dole (N.C.)
* Mel Martinez (Fla.)

Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs [108th Congress]
Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-AL), Chairman
Sen. Paul Sarbanes (D-MD), Ranking Democrat

1. Wayne Allard (R-CO)
2. Robert F. Bennett (R-UT)
3. Jim Bunning (R-KY)
4. Lincoln D. Chafee (R-RI)
5. Mike Crapo (R-ID)
6. Elizabeth Dole (R-NC)
7. Mike Enzi (R-WY)
8. Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
9. Rick Santorum (R-PA)
10. John E. Sununu (R-NH)

1. Evan Bayh (D-IN)
2. Tom Carper (D-DE)
3. Jon S. Corzine (D-NJ)
4. Christopher J. Dodd (D-CT)
5. Tim Johnson (D-SD)
6. Zell Miller (D-GA)
7. Jack Reed (D-RI)
8. Charles E. Schumer (D-NY)
9. Deborah Ann Stabenow (D-MI)

Michael said...

LarsPorsena: Like I said, I'm a liberal...and liberals love people.

Even narrow-minded right wing ideologues.

Hoosier Daddy said...

And the use of the "c" word tells me you're just another knuckle-dragging redneck.

That's hurts. Then again slurs against white people are ok. That's the liberal mantra.

Let me ask you something, why quote that asshole unless you agreed with what he said? Do you agree the grunts would have preferred 5 1/2 years in a NVA cell?

Its a stupid comment, Bell is a fuck for saying it and you're a fuck for repeating it to make your idiotic leftist dig.

For someone who rails about people like me spewing right wing crap, look in the damn mirror you hypocrite. You have done nothing but troll and spout the same tired leftist KOS shit like you did when your nick was Luckyoldson.

Now go play in the street.

Michael said...

Doyle: Conservatives have a real way with women.

mcg said...

FLS, I think the correct story, at least as far as 2003 is concerned, is that Shelby was on the right side of the reform debate, but he didn't have unanimous support from his fellow Republicans on the committee.

Donn said...

Michael to Donn:
I'm a liberal and have liberal views, but if a Democrat had done what McCain has tried to do this week I would have screamed to high heaven.

From the evidence of your posts here, I can say with utter certainty that you would do no such thing.

An example of this is when you admitted *all* campaigns lie, yet your only posts here are exclusively about the McCain campaign's *supposed* lies. Is this because you think Obama's campaign has never lied? Yet, this contradicts your statement that *all* campaigns lie.

While you constantly point out the supposed gaffes of Sarah Palin, your are curiously silent about the gaffes of Joe Biden. Why is that?

Matt said...

This just in:
Lawmakers have reached agreement on a bipartisan counterproposal to the Bush administration's $700 billion financial bailout plan.

Quick, McCain needs to get in front of the cameras to take credit so voters will think he hammered out this deal.... What a comedy show.

mcg said...

September 11, 2003: New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae

Significant details must still be worked out before Congress can approve a bill. Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.


To be fair, this reform effort was largely (but not completely) supported by Freddie and Fannie themselves. So that alone makes it suspect.

Donn said...

Michael:
and liberals love people.

No, liberals love the *idea* of loving people.

mcg said...

Quick, McCain needs to get in front of the cameras to take credit so voters will think he hammered out this deal.... What a comedy show.

You mock, but given that Obama is on his way to DC I think it's more likely that they will appear with Bush together on this.

Michael said...

Hoosier says: "That's hurts. Then again slurs against white people are ok."

You think I was referring to "white people??"

I was talking about a person like you, using the "C" word in an open forum.

Maybe if you stand up straighter...

*As for Bell, I have a hard time criticizing someone who served and has something to say. If you disagree, that's your prerogative, but people are allowed to have opinions...even when you don't share them.

Michael said...

Donn, No, we actually love people.

Pogo said...

Meanwhile, Obama's receipt of Fannie/Freddie moneys goes uninvestigated.

Good work, MSM comrades!

Michael said...

Don, "gaffes" aren't the same as being completely uninformed and unqualified to hold the position of Vice President.

They all say things they wish they hadn't and they all twist the truth, lie, shade, distort, etc., but I'll take my chances with Obama and Biden over what I've seen of McCain and Palin.

Donn said...

Michael,
Donn, No, we actually love people.

Really? So, Michael, how do you show your love for people? I know it can't be through all the name calling you do to people here.

Michael said...

Pogo, It's my understanding Obama received about $250,000 in donations from Fannie and McCain received about $20,000.

What exactly is it you feel needs "investigating?"

The money was reported so where's the beef?

LarsPorsena said...

"FLS, I think the correct story, at least as far as 2003 is concerned, is that Shelby was on the right side of the reform debate, but he didn't have unanimous support from his fellow Republicans on the committee."

Yep!! All you need is a couple of Lincoln Chaffee type Repubs and unanimous Dem oppositon and Voila!!! ' FLS has a 'bi-partisan' scandal.

Fannie Mae was and still is an open sewer/slush fund source for Dem's that pumps back funds to 'community organizations' by-and-large Dem pols. (See Barney Frank's latest fix of FM

They dole out bucks to a few R's here and there but the big bucks follow the D's.

FLS should do a study on Fannie's campaign contributions, it's PAC, and contributions by individuals.

Michael said...

Donn, You can love someone and still hammer them.

*And of course, you've probably NEVER called a friend or loved on a name.

Right?

LarsPorsena said...

"LarsPorsena: Like I said, I'm a liberal...and liberals love people."

Oh good!! Another sociology/anthropology
major.

Michael said...

Fox News has McCain dropping by 9%

9/24/08

Obama 45%

McCain 39%

Even after saving the world...

former law student said...

FLS, I think the correct story, at least as far as 2003 is concerned, is that Shelby was on the right side of the reform debate, but he didn't have unanimous support from his fellow Republicans on the committee.

Maybe there's something here I just don't get, but Bush should have been able to get laws passed by a Republican Congress.

In 2005, Bush himself opposed the Fannie/Freddie bill that McCain co-sponsored in the Senate a year later. H.R. 1461 fails to include key elements that are essential to protect the safety and soundness of the housing finance system and the broader financial system at large. As a result, the Administration opposes the bill.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=24851

Hoosier Daddy said...

You think I was referring to "white people??"

I was talking about a person like you, using the "C" word in an open forum.


Oh my mistake. I forgot calling someone a knuckledragging redneck is used against people of color too.

*As for Bell, I have a hard time criticizing someone who served and has something to say. If you disagree, that's your prerogative, but people are allowed to have opinions...even when you don't share them.

Oh so that's why you continually criticize McCain, who served. Also, if you learned to read, I didn't ask for your criticism, I asked you if you agreed with Bell that sitting in a NVA cell was preferable. It's a simple yes or no answer.

Bell is entitled to his opinion and I am entitled to call him a fuck for it.

Pogo said...

"No, we actually love people."

Yes, tovarisch. They make the best workers, no?

Unpeople -those against the One Party- we do not love. Like the Kulaks. (**spit**) Except maybe with a little sauce.

"The money was reported so where's the beef?"
ИМЕННО! precisely, comrade!
That is such the yesterday!
It is more than the 10 times for that McKane unperson who shall be gone soon. It means only Obama has the love of the people whom we love.

mcg said...

Well, I want to be a little more gracious to FLS here.

Strictly from a "buck stops here" argument, Bush failed to get his proposed reforms through. McCain failed to get his proposed reforms through. And they both had Republican majorities at the time.

On the other hand, the corruption at Fannie and Freddie spanned administrations and legislative majorities from both parties, and there was ample opportunity to identify and enact reform in both cases.

The bottom line, however, is that these kinds of reforms aren't popular because to a certain degree, both sides are in the tank. It's hard to get a majority for reform when both sides like the status quo. Yes, I genuinely believe that Dems were far more in the tank than Reps on this particular score; the money speaks for itself. But Reps couldn't bring a majority to the table, either, even when they had one. It is sad.

Michael said...

Lars: Business and marketing.

Matt said...

mcg
Yes, how could one not mock? True Obama is going for the photo-op as well. It's a charade. But McCain is the one who jumped at the idea. Obama is going because Bush requested him to be there. When the president asks you to be there it is best to go.

mcg said...

Fox News has McCain dropping by 9%

And Gallup has him tied, a 3 point positive shift, and Zogby has him up 2, a 5 point positive shift.

What the heck are we supposed to do with these?

mcg said...

Yes, how could one not mock? True Obama is going for the photo-op as well. It's a charade. But McCain is the one who jumped at the idea. Obama is going because Bush requested him to be there. When the president asks you to be there it is best to go.

Well, I honestly think McCain's actions sent a signal to the Dems and Reps to get this done. As I've said, both parties, from the words of their own leaders, indicated that support from McCain was necessary to proceed. They didn't say that about Obama. Granted, it was for political CYA reasons, but that's fine---McCain gave them the support they needed.

With that in hand Dems certainly wanted to get this deal done before McCain could take too much credit. That's OK with me.

Michael said...

Pogo, the candidates have people and organizations that donate money.

Just because a company gets caught up in a scandal, and there are plenty to go around, do you actually believe there aren't firms (Enron/Tyco/etc.) that haven't donated more to Republicans than Democrats?

Fannie Mae WAS a publicly traded company with stockholders, just like the companies I listed aove.

Who do you think Exxon and Walmart donate more money to right now...McCain or Obama?

Pogo said...

"Fox News has McCain dropping by 9%"

And ACORN promises to add another 3%, my dear party faithful.
Vote early and often, da?

mcg said...

Oil Industry Leans Toward McCain, But Big Producers Favor Obama

Roger J. said...

I would love to hear the conversation between the President and the two candidates. And I do agree that McCain's usefulness in this as the titular party leader, is to try to get a lot of antsy republicans on board. McCain's work, I suspect, starts tonight with calling and arm twisting. Obama does not have that kind of leverage; Pelosi and Reid do, so Obama is not needed to twist arms.

mcg said...

Obama's Oil Spill: Obama says he doesn't take money from oil companies. We say that's a little too slick.

Pogo said...

"Fannie Mae WAS a publicly traded company with stockholders, just like the companies I listed aove."

Excellent tack, my friend. Evade, repeat, tu quoque and such discussion things are all to the good.

Obama does not need to answer these question, no. He takes the money and is against new rules on FAN/FRED because he is for the redistribution ...to ourselves!

After all, some pigs are more equal than others. Especially more than the ones with the lipsticks.
You and I we think alike. Brother!

Donn said...

Michael,

The point is not whether I have ever called a loved one a name.

You said that all liberals love people. I would like to know how you, as a liberal, love people in a way, that I, as a conservative, do not.

madawaskan said...

live by the polls die by the polls.

Remember-these are the same polls that had Obama beating Hillary in New Hampshire by 13%.

Had Obama winning California by double digits.

Even the historically accurate Field Poll went down in that debacle.

The polls could be market driven- alot of the time the media is paying for the polls -and what is the media interested in-?

A close election or drama-it's about ad revenue.

So follow those polls if you want...

Do you know the difference between registered voters polled and likely voters?

Ever wonder why likely voter polls aren't getting published?

The closest you can approximate to 'likely voters" is to take a look at Gallup's married vs. unmarried polls.

Go take a look at those....

former law student said...

Barack Obama Senate Campaign Financing: (from Opensecrets.org)

Top 5 Contributors, 2001-2006
University of Chicago $156,054
Kirkland & Ellis $143,138
Henry Crown & Co $79,500
Sonnenschein, Nath & Rosenthal $74,950
Northwestern University $72,930


Top 5 Industries, 2001-2006
Lawyers/Law Firms $2,460,610
Securities & Investment $1,152,332
Retired $850,701
Real Estate $620,260
Education $540,316

Roger J. said...

MCG: Agree with the advice about using Realclearpolitics and focusing on the battleground states trend lines. And the date of the last state poll--some are quite dated. National head to head matchups are not the way the President is elected. I usually give more credence to polls of likely voters rather than registered voters.

Roger J. said...

Re polls its also important to see how samples are weighted; they should reflect the partisan split state by state.

The only polls that count, I suspect, are the internal polls done by each campaign. The public doesnt get to see those or their methodology.

Mad had it right, I think: This about revenue for the polling firms.

Matt said...

The fact that that John McCain’s campaign manager Rick Davis received regular payments from Freddie Mac from the year 2000 up until August 2008, contradicting candidate McCain’s own statement on the situation is the more salient issue. McCain even bated the press to look into it. And whammo they did!
The American Conservative writes:
McCain can rail against these quasi-governmental behemoths quite heroically, but where does his cred go when it turns out his top man was in the tank for Freddie for nearly a decade?

madawaskan said...

Roger J-

I don't even like the realclearpolitics trend lines.

They throw the absolute junk that is Zogby in there.

Zogby does internet interactive polls-a subject group that is self-selecting that has to be about as junky as you can get.

I thought getting good polling data depended on randomness-how the hell Zogby thinks he is achieving that with the internet interactives is beyond me.

And hell I really don't care what his excuses are-his results speak for him-

Abysmal.

Michael said...

Roger J.: The deal is already done.

LarsPorsena said...

"McCain can rail against these quasi-governmental behemoths quite heroically, but where does his cred go when it turns out his top man was in the tank for Freddie for nearly a decade?"

Where does your cred you go when BO is deeper in the tank than anyone??
He's Fannie's go-to man in the Senate
(Excepting the execrable C. Dodd)

Alex said...

Obama gets it. BTW Obama's press conference was a thing of beauty. He even took questions. Something McCain doesn't do anymore.
11:09 AM

Yeah because he knows the fawning MSM will never ask any though questions. Not exactly a profile in courage.

madawaskan said...

are the internal polls done by each campaign.

Bingo-the way to get a feel for that-isn't even how or where they spend on ads-because that's easier to do a head fake with-I think the best way to get an idea how those are going is to follow where they are campaigning the most.

Matt said...

LarsPorsena

Obama didn't and doesn't lie about his Fannie Mae connections. McCain did lie. It is not who is connected so much as who is connected and then says they are not. It's the lying - not the connection. Everyone is DC is connected in some way. Just don't run around saying your not.
Again, the American Conservative sees trouble. They are liberals in hiding.

mcg said...

Fox News Blames Democrats for the Financial Crisis; Bill Clinton Agrees

CHRIS CUOMO, ABC NEWS: A little surprising for you to hear the Democrats saying, "This came out of nowhere, this is all about the Republicans. We had nothing to do with this." Nancy Pelosi saying it. She signed the '99 Gramm Bill. She knew what was going on with the SEC. They're all sophisticated people. Is that playing politics in this situation?

BILL CLINTON: Well, maybe everybody does that a little bit. I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Matt said...

Meant to say The American Conservative are not Liberals in hiding. But, then, maybe they are to some Conservatives.

Michael said...

Donn said..."You said that all liberals love people. I would like to know how you, as a liberal, love people in a way, that I, as a conservative, do not."

First of all, my comments regarding "love" are tongue in cheek, but push come to shove, I think people who truly care for or love their fellow man favor allowing gays to be treated like every other American citizen, feel a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her own body (and before anybody gets into the killing a a child argument...where do you think the debate would be if MEN had the kids?), affordable health care would be nice for everyone, and the environment certainly appears to be more important to liberals.

Masterasia said...

This is why I love Ann Althouse, she is better than Arianna Huffington.


:D

mcg said...

I like how Bill made sure to take a little credit for trying to reform Fannie and Freddie too. Oh, he is just so delicious right now.

veni vidi vici said...

Thing of beauty, that presser yesterday? Dude, where's the drool-cup is the only question that came to mind among me and the other couple of line-standers forced to endure the CNN feed. Sorry, we're just not into Barry. Or McCain, for that matter.

The idea that McCain didn't pants Barry with that move yesterday is nonsense. Sure, it was politics. That doesn't mean it wasn't well done, strictly from "the game" point of view, mind you.

Ultimately, though, given all the extant circumstances re. what has already been going on in DC for the past week-plus, I see McCain's move as an attempt to drive down expectations for his performance tomorrow at the debate, which is on his supposed strong-suit of foreign policy, after all. He probably would like it to appear that he's gallavanting in, without the "three-day debate bootcamp" prep that his opponent has been having (courtesy of the media headlines, that quote).

Will it work? Let's see who wins the debate and how the outcome is spun.

Roger J. said...

Michael the deal is done, but there is the little matter of having the house and Senate vote on it. The deal is simply the draft legislation that will be presented for vote. The major arm twisting comes tonight, and its going to come on both sides of the aisle. his bailout is not real popular at home.

Alex said...

I just don't see how Obama wins a foreign policy debate, in lieu of Iraq is going pretty well right now. Iraq was supposed to be Obama's ultimate weapon and it's not anymore. Going away from Iraq, he's totally weak on everything. As long as McCain doesn't make any gaffes - "There is no Soviet Domination of eastern europe", he wins.

Michael said...

mcg, Why, when someone like Bill Clinton makes such a statement, do you and others immediately translate it to mean that he "blames" the Democrats for the current crisis?

BILL CLINTON: "I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac."

"...resisting any efforts by Republicans..."

THIS is what you consider to be Clinton "blaming" the Democrats...and ONLY the Democrats...for the current crisis??

C'mon...that's a crock and you know it.

Donn said...

Michael,

Your answer demonstrates why I said liberals love the *idea* of loving people.

Most of your answer is about *ideas* which you think shows more love.

However, that is why I asked how you *personally* show more love, in a tangible, not theoretical, way.

Alex said...

donn - he'll show his love for us non-lefties after we've been "dealt with". Didn't Chairman Mao come full of love?

Matt said...

veni vidi vici said...
Thing of beauty, that presser yesterday?

I guess it depends on where you are. I was at work and everyone watching it was impressed by how Obama came off - especially taking questions. I'm not sure what you mean by drool cup. Obama is articulate. Sure he says um and ah sometimes. So what? I remember some Republicans saying Bill Clinton was a bad talker too. I guess if you hate someone enough you find every reason to hate them more? Obama is certainly a better speaker than McCain. Does it matter? Let the voters decide.

Donn said...

Matt,

No question about it, Obama is a much better speaker than McCain.

Alex said...

donn - we'll see how good a speaker Obama is at 72.

Michael said...

Alex, I listened to a military expert last night who said Iraq was in much better shape and a year ago, but still so "fragile" it was impossible to imagine what it would be like without 140,000 American soldiers patrolling the areas.

He also said Afghanistan is a tremendous mess and that we're sending more and more troops there every day to quell uprisings, with no end in sight.

At this point, I think we should just pull up stakes and get out of both countries, and let them hash it out.

If I had a son, daughter, father mother or friend killed over there at this point in time, after what we've already seen, I would have a difficult time understanding why they had to give their life.

mcg said...

THIS is what you consider to be Clinton "blaming" the Democrats...and ONLY the Democrats...for the current crisis??

Did I say he was blaming ONLY Democrats? Of course not. What I don't expect him to do in an election cycle is to concede that Republicans were making efforts to reform Fannie and Freddie and that Democrats resisted it. He doesn't have to say those things, Michael, to get his point across.

Michael said...

Donn, without belaboring the point: ALL of my "ideas" involve "people."

If you provide food, clothing and shelter to your children, is that not the extension of an "idea" that they are necessary for the family unit?

You're parsing my words and not doing a very good job of it.

mcg said...

Ah, I see why you think he was saying he was blaming Democrats---that was the Newsbusters headline, and I quoted it for my link. I do think it is more fair to say that Clinton is conceding at least shared responsibility.

Alex said...

michael - bottom line is that Obama can't use Iraq as a weapon in the debate. It's not a staggering success, but it's not a horrible failure either. Liberals are pissed.

Matt said...

Donn
What is your definition of 'love' in this case? Conservatives usually think 'love' means some kind of Libertarian ideal while Liberals think in more of a Social Democracy vein. I think both have valid points. Leave people alone without too much regulation and control is a form of love. But having universal healthcare and social security is also a form of love because it gives people a united safety net which keeps us floating on.

Pogo said...

"Obama is certainly a better speaker than McCain."

Yes, Matt, yes!!
Steer the questions from the meaningless Ayers query. What impertinence!

Speak of his style and stateliness, not the mere $250K from that now-defunct little mortgager FAN/FRED. A mere pittance!

No need to focus on his spiritual mentor. He probably wan't there or didn't hear it or was daydreaming about the church donuts not the Amerikkka speech. That is true ...ПРАВДА!

Yes, focus on his command of the elusive speech, the words that comfort but do not inform. We will have them soon enough anyway.

Good work, comrade Matt!

mcg said...

Wait a minute, Reid is now saying "With the economic news only getting worse each day, I call on the President, Senator McCain and Congressional Republicans to join us to quickly get this done for American families."

Can he make up his mind? Does he want McCain there or not?

mcg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alex said...

pogo - comrade Matt is too busy thinking about the post-victory plans. Like what will be done with the American kulaks(hang them with their own rope, etc...)

Alex said...

mcg - Rush is right. Dingy Harry is the worst Senate majority leader ever.

Roger J. said...

I suspect Senator Obama is going to back in DC tomorrow, because, like the republicans, the dems whose seats are up for election are going to want to know precisely where both standard bearers come down on this bailout issue. And frankly, if I were a Democrat up for election, I would want a signed statement from Obama as he appears to have some degree of difficulty sticking with a consistent position on big issues like FISA and public financing.

Arturius said...

At this point, I think we should just pull up stakes and get out of both countries, and let them hash it out.

I'm not quite certain allowing the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan and harboring Al Qaeda is in the best interests of the United States.

Iraq on the other hand should be left to its own devices at this point. Al Qaeda demonstrated that they're not welcome there and is doubtful they could establish a presence there like they did in Afghanistan. The Iraqis simply won't tolerate them.

Michael said...

mcg, Sorry, I was refering to the headline you attached:

"Fox News Blames Democrats for the Financial Crisis; Bill Clinton Agrees"

I can't believe Fox News would say something like about Bill.

Donn said...

Good grief Michael.....I THINK that giving 5% of my money to charity is a sign of love. Just don't ask me to *do* it. Therein describes the liberals *idea* of showing love.

Michael said...

Arturius said..."I'm not quite certain allowing the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan and harboring Al Qaeda is in the best interests of the United States."

I'm not sure of any of it.

At this point, what has gone right?
(Sure, things are better than a year ago, but we also still have 140,000 Americans at risk.)

And what makes you think our staying will eventually eliminate the Taliban or Al Qaeda from either area?

This is the same rhetoric we've been hearing for 5 years now and we're still spending 10 billion a month ($10,000 per American family), which by the way, coincides perfectly with McCain's claim the other day that the current bailout would cost American families $10,000 apiece.

Some day, even many here will look back at the folly of thinking we could do what Bush and company thought.

Michael said...

donn, Again, you're parsing what I said.

And to say you give to charities, but don't want to be asked is rather disingenuous, isn't it?

Try passing that onto the charities themselves and see what they say.

Just wait...and you will receive??

I-don't-think-so...

Revenant said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Revenant said...

I see the usual phenomenon has occurred again. As always when Ann criticizes McCain or Palin, the leftie trolls come out of the woodwork to complain that (a) she's never done it before and (b) she's not being mean *enough*.

Amusingly predictable.

Matt said...

Pogo
Why the attitude?
I was referring to veni vidi vici's response to mine about the press conference.
True, it does not matter who is the better speaker when looking at the larger picture. That said I am a Liberal and you are a Conservative so we see things through our own spin.
I think everyone in DC is connected in some ways to Fannie Freddie etc. The problem is when McCain says Rick Davis is not and then, whoops, he really is.

I can't convince you any more than you can convince me of political leanings. But perhaps we can agree the economic crisis is the fault of both Democrats and Republicans.

Michael said...

Matt says: "I can't convince you any more than you can convince me of political leanings. But perhaps we can agree the economic crisis is the fault of both Democrats and Republicans."

GFL.

Arturius said...

At this point, what has gone right?
(Sure, things are better than a year ago, but we also still have 140,000 Americans at risk.)


We don't have 140,000 soldiers in Afghanistan but in Iraq and I think its time we leave and let the Iraqis either rebuild their country or go back to slaughtering each other. Personally, either option should not involve another US soldier or dollar.

And what makes you think our staying will eventually eliminate the Taliban or Al Qaeda from either area?

The Taliban and Al Qaeda are in Afghanistan. I'm not sure if they will ever be eliminated, at least not under the current rules of engagement.

This is the same rhetoric we've been hearing for 5 years now and we're still spending 10 billion a month

I'm sorry what exactly did I say that is synonomous with the rhetoric of the last five years?Iraq and Afghanistan are two separate campaigns. I happen to agree with Obama in that we should be concentrating on Afghanistan and let the Iraqis get on with themselves. Al Qaeda in Iraq is all but defeated. If the Iraqis can't handle what's left, well then they're more incompetent than I originally imagined.

Michael said...

roger, Obama is going back because Bush asked, and he's the President.

Donn said...

Michael,

Are you purposely being obtuse?

You said: "I'm a liberal...and liberals love people."

I asked how do liberal show more love, and you proceeded to list "programs." Now, whether or not these show love (abortion), or a lack of love, involve the discussing of ideas.

That's why I asked for tangible ways that you, as a liberal, show love. Then you said providing for your children. I agree, this shows love. But since I, as a conservative, do the same thing, this hardly supports your first statement. And I'm still waiting for you to show me how, you, Michael, show more love than conservatives.

Michael said...

I love the socialistic, communistic, Marxist insinuations like "comrade Matt" that are thrown around.

Can I assume no one here, and no one in your family or circle of friends will be taking advantage of those nasty "socialistic" programs like Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security...or, hey, what if we end up with a national health care program?

Opting out of all?

That'll be the day...

Michael said...

Donn, If you can't understand me, forget it.

mcg said...

Can I assume no one here, and no one in your family or circle of friends will be taking advantage of those nasty "socialistic" programs like Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security...or, hey, what if we end up with a national health care program?

Opting out of all?


Sure, I'll be happy to. Where can I pick up my check for all the money I've put into it thus far?

Lava said...

Obama thinks we are facing the greatest financial crisis in a century, and his argument is that HE CAN PHONE IT IN?!

Or how about, we can't afford to delay a debate by 72 hours so a deal can be hammered out to help prevent the greatest financial crisis in a century?

So I suppose if Russia or Iran start preparations to launch a nuclear missile at us, Obama's response will be to pout and say, "You can't do that because that's not according to my schedule."

What a laughable non-leader.

Arturius said...

Can I assume no one here, and no one in your family or circle of friends will be taking advantage of those nasty "socialistic" programs like Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security

I'm not sure those programs would fall under the definition of socialistic.

Socialism, generally speaking, is usually defined as government control over the means of production or services and the distribution thereof. The programs you listed certainly don't fit such a definition.

Michael said...

Arturious asks: "I'm sorry what exactly did I say that is synonomous with the rhetoric of the last five years?"

You said this: "I'm not quite certain allowing the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan and harboring Al Qaeda is in the best interests of the United States."

First of all, that is precisely what Bush and company have been saying over and over again, as an excuse when we went in and an excuse for why we haven't left.

Second, I'm also not sure that "allowing the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan and harboring Al Qaeda is in the best interests of the United States."

But you could say the same thing about elements and forces alive and well in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, North Korea and even Russia...all represent threats to America.

True?

Donn said...

Michael:
Donn, If you can't understand me, forget it.

Thanks, I'll take that as you don't have an answer to a very simple question.

Michael said...

Arturius: You can be as "unsure" as you want, but if you don't think each of those programs is not considered to be "socialistic" you're dreaming.

Does the government have "control over the means of production or services" related to Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security? If not, who's running the show?

Does the government have "control over the distribution thereof?" If not, who's runnning the show?

Michael said...

Donn, I answered the question about five times.

And for God' sake...I also said the "love" part was "tongue in cheek."

What is it you don't understand??

Michael said...

Lava said..."Obama thinks we are facing the greatest financial crisis in a century, and his argument is that HE CAN PHONE IT IN?!"

Lava, where has McCain been during this crisis?

He had his first press conference in over six weeks...two days ago.

Shanna said...

and out of nowhere, McCain announces he has to be there so things can be settled?

Michael, apparently not only did the democrats, like Pelosi, kick up their heels and say they aren’t doing anything unless McCain takes some of the burden, but Paulson called him and told him to get the Republicans in line. And, as Lisa (?) mentioned, congress is about to go on recess and the Democratic leadership’s first impulse was to run away and hope things get fixed on their own.

Oh, and also if we don’t do anything the whole economy might crash Monday.

These are the things McCain based his decision on and anyone who wouldn’t make the same decision given those same set of facts is a complete and total idiot, or a partisan hack who would rather let his country go to hell to win an election. McCain is a decent guy. He did what needed doing. Obama should be ashamed of making political hay out of this.

As I said in another thread, I would rather McCain do what he can to help avert a crisis then have a debate Friday or even have a Republican win in November. If he loses for this reason, so be it. I can live with that.

Michael said...

mcg, Why not call and opt out right now?

Make it plain you don't want any discounts on medicine or care, and take what you've got in Social Security out right now.

Of course we all know that ain't happening soon.

Talk is cheap.

Matt said...

Donn
What about my question? What do you define as 'love'?

Arturius
I've been on many a Right wing blogs and you are the first to say that Social Security and Medicare are not socialist programs. Interesing. Maybe we are getting somewhere when Republcans like social programs.
What about this bail out plan? If that isn't a form of socialism then I don't know what is.

Donn said...

Michael:
Donn, I answered the question about five times.

Yeah right. Nice try.

However, I do accept that you meant the comment, "tongue in cheek."

Donn said...

Matt,

I take love as an action, not a thought or feeling.

I think one the best description of love is found in Corithians 13.

Roger J. said...

Shanna has it right, I think. No one up for reelection wants to vote for this thing unless they get promises from both standard bearers that they support it. The arm twisting starts tonite, and will continue up till the votes are cast later this week. While I dont think Obama is much for going up on the skyline in Public, I suspect his democratic colleagues in Congress are going to demand that he does.

chickenlittle said...

Michael said: Can I assume no one here, and no one in your family or circle of friends will be taking advantage of those nasty "socialistic" programs like Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security...
Opting out of all?


Ah but it is liberals who are opting out of these intergenerational ponzi schemes. The WSJ reports .

Fecund families like the Palins will literally pay to have your depends diapers changed, and your drivel wiped from your faces in your fourth season.

Michael said...

Shanna, I appreciate your respect and admiration for McCain, but this was nothing more than a political pandering ploy.

First of all, he's not on any of the relevant committees, he's been AWOL for weeks on end, hasn't even had a press conference until 2 days ago for over 6 weeks, and he has NOT suspended his campaign.
He's still running ads, Palin is still at rallies...and he himself sat down with Katie Couric just yeasterday.

He also hold little if any sway over the people who are actually working on the deal.

As for Paulson "calling" him, give me a break. Paulson is a Republican and if he actually did call...what's so surprising? McCain is running on the Republican ticket...right?
And wouldn't the publicity surrounding such a call be...good for McCain's campaign?

Matt said...

Shanna
The facts don't back you up here. McCain has no say in the negotiations. He is not on the committees nor in the room hammering out deals. He wants you to believe he has some say in this. But he is only going to DC for a photo-op. What he can do is rally Republicans to support or not support the plan - but it's mainly for show. That said, he can still debate Friday night then get back to DC to rally again. Not hard to do. Presidents need to do more than one thing sometimes.
Also the economy will not crash Monday. Won't crash at all. Even Ben Stein says this crisis is blown out of proportion and he is way far right. The 700 billion plan stinks on all levels.

mcg said...

mcg, Why not call and opt out right now?

Make it plain you don't want any discounts on medicine or care, and take what you've got in Social Security out right now.


How do you expect me to do that? The law doesn't allow me to do so. Believe me: if I could, I would withdraw every penny I've put into Social Security.

Of course we all know that ain't happening soon.

Agreed. There is nothing I can reasonably do now to keep from paying into a system I don't want.

Talk is cheap.

You got it. But since you're the one demanding I keep paying into a system I don't want, whose talk is actually "cheap" here?

former law student said...

Ah but it is liberals who are opting out of these intergenerational ponzi schemes. The WSJ reports .

We'll just issue more H-1B visas -- get some more high paid Third-Worlders paying into Social Security.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mcg said...

Matt, you say McCain has no say in the negotiations, but that's not what his fellow congressmen say:

McCain, in particular, was being leaned on by Democrats and fellow Republicans alike to deliver GOP votes, as some conservatives are in open revolt over the astonishing price tag of the proposal and the heavy hand of government that it would place on private markets. Placating them enough to bring them in line could be a tall order for the Republican presidential nominee who has a checkered relationship with the right wing of his party.

(link)

Shanna said...

You think they just rent an auditorium. throw up some bleachers and have a debate??

What college in the universe would have to RENT an auditorium? God you are dumb.

Oh, and whoever asked why the polls are so erratic, take a look at the party weights. When you change those every poll, it’s not surprising that they change wildly.

mcg said...

Also the economy will not crash Monday. Won't crash at all. Even Ben Stein says this crisis is blown out of proportion and he is way far right.

It ought to at least be conceded that this is in dispute. For example, from Byron York: If the worst comes, that's what we're looking at, according to a highly credentialed conservative economist I was just talking to: "A major, major depression—as bad as anything we've experienced in our lifetimes."

Matt said...

Donn
Hey, I love Corithians 13 too.
But actually the action of a universal healtcare system, the action of a strong regulatory act to prevent fraud and many other actions done by the government - in my view - are signs of 'love'. Not love like puppy love but respect and care for people, consumers and regular folks not in Washington. Know what I mean? I would say that has something to do with the 'liberals love people' line.

Michael said...

For those of you who bleive McCain has "suspended his campaign...for the good of the country of course:

In the five hours after McCain’s speech today, aides Nancy Pfotenhauer, Tucker Bounds, and Mike Duhaime appeared on Fox News and MSNBC five times, frequently criticizing Obama and Democrats…

The Democrats think McCain’s true motivation for calling off his campaign and coming back to DC is simply to cast a “no” vote against the bailout, despite his private statements to the contrary.

Rep. John Boehner is now backing down on the bail so McCain can take the lead of the Republican party and announce what they will do.

Michael said...

Shanna, My comment didn't relate to the university having to rent an auditorium, you twit.

It was directed at somebody who couldn't understand how it could cost 5 million dollars to plan and pull off a debate of this magnitude.

Anal are we?

Matt said...

mcg
I did awknowledge that McCain can rally troops. And at this hour the GOP is trying to orchestrate it so McCain is their spokesmen so it looks like he is the leader. It's got Frank Capra written all over it.
Also, what I mean is I do not think there will be a crash Monday if McCain does the debates or doesn't show up on his white horse to save us. The Senate knows what they are doing and will avert a crisis with out without McCain, Obama or Bush for that matter.

Donn said...

Matt,

I think it's two different things to say (1) I show love by supporting government programs, and (2) I show love by doing this, this, and this.

I think liberals tend to show love the first way, and conservatives tend to show love the second.

And add to this, where or not (1) actually does show love. Choice versus abortion is just one such example.

Michael said...

"Even Ben Stein says this crisis is blown out of proportion..."

You must mean Ben Stein, the famous and highly respected economist, game show host and speech writer for Dick Nixon?

The guy who wants MORE taxation for the wealthy and doesn't buy into that "evolution" thing?

That's a keeper...

Donn said...

Michael:
you twit
Anal are we?


There goes Michael again, showing "the love." 8^)

Henry said...

I vote for a retroactive comment limit at ... 12:34 pm. With maybe 1:35 pm appended.

Roger J. said...

"The Senate knows what they are doing and will avert a crisis ...."
LOL--


Since money bills start in the House, lets see what happens there first and if the repubs can get enough votes for the bailout so Pelosi doesnt have to jump off the cliff by herself.

This deal is by no means done and it may even go to a conference committee if the honorable members start hanging crap on it.

Shanna said...

Make it plain you don't want any discounts on medicine or care, and take what you've got in Social Security out right now.

In what universe is this an option. How dumb are you truly. Wait, I take that back. How OLD are you? 11? Because that's really the only explanation I can see for your complete and total lack of knowledge on this basic point of fact. God. Is there any way to block people on blogger?

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