September 2, 2008

Live-blogging night 2 of the Republican Convention.

5:22 Central Time: Just setting up the post. Let's watch!

5:31: Ugh. CNN is still going over and over the hurricane. Would they be making so much of a hurricane of this dimension if it was the Democratic Convention?

5:32: I'll have to run off at some point to go to a hair appointment. Feel free to tell me how you think I should get my hair cut. Pictures especially appreciated.

5:49: The subject is whether Sarah Palin should stay home with her "special needs" child. Can you be a mother and pursue a career? Gloria Borger, a self-identified "working mom," says you can't make "generalizations," and everyone must make her own decision.

5:57: Wolf Blitzer is pushing the meme -- which I've heard elsewhere -- that McCain is a "maverick" and that means he makes impulsive decisions like the choice of Sarah Palin. He doesn't add -- but there are versions of this meme where it is added -- that this supposedly gut level choice of Sarah Palin should stand as a warning about the way he will make decisions about foreign policy.

6:38: Super-serious singing of the the national anthem, but I really don't like the singer's enunciation. Weird to have the flag waving on a digital screen.

8:22: I'm back. Hair cut. Just scrolled through all the stuff I missed, and it seems like virtually nothing.

8:43: Very moving presentation of the story of a Medal of Honor winner, Michael Monsoor. I see from the NYT that Senator Lieberman spoke, but I didn't see that in my scroll-through, so I didn't mean to count that as "virtually nothing." What I saw was a lot of Blitzer et al. commentary. [ADDED: No, that was just a preview. I didn't miss it.]

8:53: It's Laura Bush, extolling her husband as a man of principle and resolve. She praises his achievements: the appointment of women and 2 new Supreme Court Justices, the faith based initiative, the fight against AIDS -- "you might call that change you can really believe in" -- "and let's not forget, President Bush has kept the American people safe." Will Laura's husband ever be honored? Does she believe he will? She introduces him.

8:56: And here he is, on the video screen. "I know the hard choices that fall solely to a President. John McCain's life has prepared him to make those choices. He is ready to lead this nation."

9:09: A film clip about Reagan. In the car, I heard the film clip about Abraham Lincoln. The Republican Convention, much more than the Democratic Convention, highlights the heroic individual. This fits the party's ideology. John McCain was "a foot soldier" in "the Reagan Revolution." Reagan "broke the self-confidence of the Evil Empire of Communism." And he had Nancy. He put "country first." ("Country First" is the new McCain campaign slogan.)

9:14: And now: Fred Thompson. Ah! He springs to the defense of Sarah Palin. "I say give me a tough Alaskan Governor who's taken on the political establishment of the largest state in the Union and won over the Beltway 'business as usual' crowd any day of the week!"

9:18: Fred says Sarah has got the other side "in a state of panic." And she knows "how to field dress a moose." Now, he's telling the story of John McCain's life, "putting his country first." He's putting a lot of passion into the delivery. The harrowing story of McCain's imprisonment. "We hear a lot of talk about hope these days. John McCain knows about hope. That's all he had."

9:29: Remember. After the comments go over 200, you need to click on "post a comment" and then "newer" to keep the conversation going. I know a lot of you know how to do that.

9:35: "The respect [John McCain] is given around the world is not because of a teleprompter speech designed to appeal to America's critics abroad... *ahem*.... no, it's not that."

9:38: Obama is "history-making" all right: he's the most inexperienced, left-wing candidate the Democrats have ever run -- says Thompson.

9:52: The CNN commentary is insufferable. After Thompson, they all just kept saying "red meat."

9:55: It's Joe Lieberman. I kind of love this guy. I voted for him one time. Man, he is a boring speaker though. I can't imagine him as the VP candidate. Palin is a much better speaker.

9:59: "I'm here to support John McCain because country matters more than party."

10:05: "Eloquence is no substitute for a record," Lieberman says of Obama. Now, he compares Obama to Bill Clinton. Clinton stood up to interest groups and worked with Republicans for major achievements. [ADDED: He was saying Clinton was better than Obama: "In the Senate [Obama] has not reached across party lines to get anything significant done, nor has he been willing to take on powerful interest groups in the Democratic Party. Contrast that to John McCain’s record, or the record of the last Democratic President, Bill Clinton, who stood up to some of those same Democratic interest groups and worked with Republicans to get important things done like welfare reform, free trade agreements, and a balanced budget."]

10:07: Sarah Palin is a "great lady."

10:12: He's warming up. Maybe it's not so boring now. "These are not ordinary times and John McCain is no ordinary candidate." He says what he thinks is right... ah... too much repetition. John McCain has character and experience....

10:17: After-speech commentary. Donna Brazile is talking fast but stumbles in a way -- "Look, Joe... Lieberman is a man... " -- "speaking at this conviction, this convention" -- that makes me feel sure she's reading from a teleprompter.

10:21: David Gergen thinks Lieberman has "extremely annoyed" some Democrats by not only supporting his old friend McCain but also really going after Obama "in a very personal way."

10:43: That's it for me. A decent convention night. The highlight was Fred Thompson's dramatization of McCain's Vietnam experience. Or was it Joe Lieberman telling everyone we should vote against his party?

577 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 577 of 577
Lem said...

i claim 400

Michael McNeil said...

Appropriately monikered LoafingOaf sez:
Oh, so I see Governor Palin, who hunts moose for kicks and trophies, had a bumper sticker that read: "Vegetarian: Old Indian word for bad hunter."
I'm a vegetarian. Guess what, Palin? "Anti-Sex-Ed = Pregnant teen in shotgun marriage."
Fuck off.


You leftist sad sacks are so sure you know what's going on — all in advance of any relevant data.

As Sherry Johnston, mother of Levi Johnston, the father of Sarah Palin's grandchild-to-be and fiance to her daughter, put it (quoting the LA Times):

«The young parents-to-be haven't faced any pressure to wed, says the boy's mother, Sherry Johnston, reporting that the two teens planned to marry before it was known she was pregnant.

«"This is just a bonus," Johnston said.»

But that's just another great conspiracy too, right? Sure.

Her son Levi Johnston, by the way, is on his way to the Republican Convention, where he will be proudly presented alongside the Palins.

And Sarah Palin is quite correct (though tongue-in-cheek, no doubt with a mind to getting a rise specifically out of you and your ilk) with regard to her t-shirt, at least in an Alaska, particularly the extreme environments traditionally inhabited by Eskimo. Though nowadays one can fly or ship in vegetables from halfway around the world, in the past vegetarians could do nothing but starve in such an environment. Vegetarianism is simply an affectation in which the modern age allows such diletantes to indulge.

vbspurs said...
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Michael said...

vbspurs,
Oh, come on, you can suck on simon harder than that.

Give it another try.

reader_iam said...
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Host with the Most said...

'

LOAFINGOAF HAS NO BALLS

DOO-DAH DOO-DAH

IQ OF 50 HELPS HIM TROLL

O-DE-DOO-DAH-DAY

WHACKINGOFF ALL NIGHT

CLEANING OFF THE SCREEN ALL DAY

BET MY VOTE ON AN UNQUALIFIED GUY

SOMEBODY MADE ME LOSE MY WAY

Michael McNeil said...
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MC said...

michael said:

"MC aks: Who are you talking about?

How many guesses do we get...and do they all start with G.W.?"

No, I'm asking in whose eyes has the credibility of the US been damaged? Other than the democrates?

Both France and Germany have elected leaders who want to move closer to the US. I don't know who's moving away so badly that it will take "generations to repair".

vbspurs said...

Okay, my attempt at the reply was even more convoluted than what I was complaining against!

Take 2:

Reader, since there seems to be a tension between us, I haven't wanted to reply that your parenthetical thoughts sometimes make me lose track of what your original point.

Ask anything of me, and I will answer as best I can. :)

peter hoh said...

Loaf, did you see the recent NYT article about underground dining?

For each course, Ms. Newberry, in cut-offs and a T-shirt that read, “Meat Is Murder — Tasty, Tasty Murder,” would emerge from her galley kitchen, barely shouting distance away from the two butcher-paper-covered tables set up in her living room, to describe the dishes. “This is quail,” she said of the entree. “They look a little obscene because they’re doing yoga.” The birds, splayed and stuffed with goat cheese and wrapped in bacon, were served with corn pudding and pomegranate molasses. “Yum,” was the general consensus.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

I stopped reading comments at about the 300 mark, but...

Who is that annoying guy yelling YEAH YEAH YEAH every pause in Lieberman's speech?

VICTORIA! I know! I thought I was going insane. It was so fucking distracting (not that it wasn't hard to be distracted by Lieberman). I'm fairly certain Howard Dean snuck into the RNC.

As far as Lieberman goes, he is a miserable ghoul, to use one of Palladian's words. What a disgrace to the human race (and yes, I hated him long long ago, when he was running with Gore).

And Thompson is so arrogant, so smug and greasy, I feel dirty and offended just watching him. A lazy douche of epic proportions...nice job running for president for 5 minutes and getting 2 votes.

He had some great lines and I completely get why you all had orgasms over him. He said some very smart things...but his riff on "bigwigs" and "pundits" and "cocktail parties"...please. Like a Hollywood actor is so removed from these things...give me a fucking break. He could be reading the phonebook and I would want to vomit. He has zero credibility and is a tool, the end.

Have a great night!

Host with the Most said...

Michael, child pornography connoisseur,

Put down the child porn and answer the question.

vbspurs said...

Michael you are not my pimp. If I need fellating tips, I'll ask Titus.

Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."The young parents-to-be haven't faced any pressure to wed, says the boy's mother, Sherry Johnston, reporting that the two teens planned to marry before it was known she was pregnant."

How wonderful and fuzzy.

Then again, here's what Levi Johnston (fiance & father-to-be) had to say, after "claiming to be in a relationship"...but states, "I don't want kids."

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW...brings a tear to my eye.

Michael said...

vbspurs,
But you could suck harder on simon...just this once?

Synova said...

You Tube has a host of political interviews with Governor Sarah Palin.

But I'm sure the oaf knew that.

Though the sudden necessity of foreign policy experience is interesting... how's Obama on that?

Palin brings a proven history of reform and willingness to face down her own party (and since so very many Republicans are at least somewhat disgusted with their party, this is good) that reinforces McCain's favored reputation as a maverick (didn't Maverick brand other people's cows? or am I thinking of someone else). She brings experience in the area of energy that probably no one else could really match... and if that's not "foreign policy" relevant then I don't know what is.

And she's got a uterus.

And while it's nice that she didn't chose to abort a child for the crime of having down's syndrome, the fact is that she would be equally hated for having five entirely normal children.

And yes... for all the people who hate her for that, there are those who really *like* that she has demonstrated that she really and truly *likes* humans.

If it's "conservative" not to hate your own species, so be it.

Host with the Most said...

michael, michael,

is this why you have no where ekse to go?

Before I track down and report your email and server to the police for trafficking ion child porn,

Answer the question

Chip Ahoy said...

Every time I see someone holding up a sign I'm compelled to replace it with something ridiculous. The joy of Photoshop has done this to me and now I cannot stop it.

Michael McNeil said...

Ann:
Okay, now I see where "Newer" comes from. However, after clicking on "post a comment," somehow I ended up on a page with nothing but "Older" and "Oldest" links rather than "Newer" or "Newest" -- I'm quite sure how that happened, because now I see "Newer" when I follow that link.

I still think instructions on the page would be very helpful for a great many of your commenters.

Michael said...

synova says: "Palin brings a proven history of reform..."

Yes, and what an extensive history it is.

Duh.

vbspurs said...

"I don't want kids" was from the fake ID created for him.

If you don't smarten up, I'll call the Troll-Tastic Agency, and request a replacement.

Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...

MICHAEL

Put down the child porn and answer the question

Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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vbspurs said...

Michael is anally-fixated.

Okay, he's not, but he's building up to it.

Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Michael said...

Host with the Most said..."Before I track down and report your email and server to the police for trafficking ion child porn..."

What in the world are you talking about. fool?

Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Michael McNeil said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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Host with the Most said...
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vbspurs said...

Okay, well this thread is going from totally mahhhhvellous to possibly retarded.

So, I'll be back when the trolls stop trying to hijack us from enjoying it.

Palladian said...

Host With The Most, do shut up, ok?

Michael said...

There are some very strange and evidently sick people on this blog.

Are these people regulars?

Palladian said...

Irregulars.

Randy said...

Roger J RE:
Randy--why do you suppose historical allusions are lost on the modern left

Because most of them have appear to have slept through history class way back when and haven't learned a thing since, IMO. LOL!

William said...

Doberman, in his even-handed way, highlighted that Thompson pointed out that McCain's experience as a POW was irrelevant to being President. If you are a hero, it is irrelevant. But ff you served in the National Guard, you should be ineligible. Serving in Vietnam and throwing away your medals strikes just the right balance....I thought the tribute to the Medal of Honor winner was moving. The only veterans that Democrats are willing to honor are disabled vets who get screwed by the VA--the vet as victim rather than the vet as hero. Well, bless them for making a fuss, but bless the Republicans for honoring courage and sacrifice.

Michael said...

mc,
You really don't think America's reputation has not been tarnished throughout the world?

Be honest now.

Host with the Most said...

Victoria,
Why converse with the trolls like Micheal when they come here not to comment and engage, but to deride - not even the candidates - but the candidate's supporters, and then have nothing they can say when sincerely asked to defend their candidates qualifications and reason for voting for them?

They don't get to come here and attack the supporters and get away with it.

former law student said...

Anyone see that CBS, NBC, and ABC all have talking head stuff cutting into Fred's speech? Shameless bias. It's appalling.

Freeman -- watch C-SPAN. It's all convention and no talking heads. Since I discovered it I have been at peace. The pundits must be paid per blathering word.

Fred Thompson was amazing. If you need a keynote speaker he is your man. Even without the benefit of a Certified Political Expert (TM) I thought "Mmmm... Red meat for the base." I couldn't listen to Senator Lugubriousman, so I watched a 2.5 Men rerun.

Till tonight, I never realized that God was a Republican, and that Republicans were as one with Evangelical Christianity, football, country music, and perhaps NASCAR. (I was busy this evening so what sticks in my mind is the beginning and ending.) The benediction seemed geared to televangelist fans. Someone who seemed way too young to do so talked about rehabbing houses to sell to the poor. Then the reincarnation of Ayn Rand explained that handing one's cash to the government is no virtue, but that running up deficits in the name of Iraq was no vice. Sadly, she did not realize that "Minnesota nice" is sarcasm, an insult describing the superficial niceness of someone who really could not care if you lived or died.

Then the valediction from the Rabbi, the one who enlisted God in McCain's service. He had internalized the evangelical cadences so well that I swore he was going to end, "through Christ our Lord Amen." But he did remind the crowd that God spoke Hebrew, and not King James English.

And by the way, I wish Bristol and Levi every happiness, though I do hope they would tie the knot before the baby pops out. Their fooling around says nothing about Mrs. Palin's fitness either as a mother or a VP candidate.

Host with the Most said...

Michael,
I'm a reagular since the second month of existence since this blog began.

You are a whore for the Democrats.

If you can't answer the sincere question, then you are fair game.

And yes, your server ID can be found.

But why not just play fair and answer the question?

Synova said...

"Yes, and what an extensive history it is."

I wish it was more. Wish we could have waited another 4 or 8 years.

She's the same age as I am for pete's sake.

But so is Obama.

And far as I can tell, his experience is mostly in voting "present" and... btw... notice how suddenly his *campaign* is executive experience? It has to count for something because he can't actually claim to have *worked* as a Senator since he got elected.

Randy said...

vbspurs,
But you could suck harder on simon...just this once?


Hmmm. Your posts read like attempts to silence vbspurs through intimidation. It won't work, but it does reveal the workings your narrow mind. Sounds like your personal equipment is, to put it charitably, inadequate.

Synova said...

"Sadly, she did not realize that "Minnesota nice" is sarcasm, an insult describing the superficial niceness of someone who really could not care if you lived or died."

Really? Since when?

I thought it was the compulsive way we have of assisting people in stores when we aren't even an employee.

Palladian said...

"You really don't think America's reputation has not been tarnished throughout the world?

Be honest now."

It's not that we don't think that the rest of the world (Read: Europe) thinks our reputation is "tarnished" it's that we don't care. The only time "the rest of the world" (Read: Europe) thinks our reputation is shiny-bright is when we're on our knees, either because we've been wounded or because we're fellating them. International survival is not a popularity contest. I don't honestly care much about the opinions of a bunch of aging socialists who are no more than one generation away from fascism in their past and demographic oblivion in their future.

Palladian said...

Obama supporters hate women, don't they? They hated Hillary and now they're absolutely batshit insane over the appearance of yet another woman to spoil their boy's club.

reader_iam said...
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Chip Ahoy said...

I think Ann should have her hairdresser tease her hair waaaaaay up then pin little tings in it the way Amy Winehouse does. That would be cool.

Or an afro.

Or pigtails like the Wendy's girl.

I feel a Photoshopping session coming on.

Peter V. Bella said...

MadisonMan said...
As I said, I think Sarah Palin could be an excellent President. I fail to see why you, for example, are so gung ho for her right now. What's her position on, say, Palestinians? Darfur?

Palestinians? Don’t make me laugh. They created their own problem in 1948 when they fled Israel on orders from the Mufti of Jerusalem. They deserve what they got. Read history, not propaganda. You may actually learn something. Israel is the only country in the world that actually knows how to deal with terrorists; hunt them down and capture or kill them. The Palestinians forsook any claim they had to Israel 50 years ago.

Darfur? Another laugh and joke of the mad liberal left. The whole African Continent is a joke. The best thing we can do is to ignore it and let it blow itself up. Just ask the French, the Belgians, the Italians, and the Portuguese. The African continent is lost. There is nothing to be done until the people of Africa say enough and rise up against tyranny. Pigs will fly first. Oh, and we should cut off all the billions we spend on the so called AIDS epidemic. The Swiss cannot open enough banks to hold all the money being stolen.

LoafingOaf said...

Freeman Hunt is busy analyzing whether talking heads cut in on speeches and whether certain channels putted down the volume for the aplauses.

Nothing is different from the network coverage of this convention and the Democrat convention, so she can stop with these conspiracy theories.

Instead she should tell us why Sarah Palin is ready to take over as Commander in Chief at any time. Palin, someone we can't find more than three sentences she has ever uttered about the many foreign policy issues we're facing as a superpower in a time of war. Oh, but she tried to fire a librarian who didn't wanna burn some books Palin found offensive, and she hunts moose, and she didn't abort a Downs Syndrome baby. I guess that goes over well with home-schooling Christianists, but does it make Palin FIT FOR COMMAND?

You got your woman in the VP candidacy. The magnifying glass is now on her and her supporters. It's looking ugly. I think she'll be a ruined woman before the month is out. We shall see. Andrew Sullivan has already found she has a nutty church leader. TPM confirmed that her husband was a member of the Alaska Independance Party, affiliated with the pro-theocracy Constitution Party. Etc etc etc. You guys played hardball in forcing McCain to wreck his credibility and pick Palin, someone he knew barely nothing about. We're gonna play hardball on Palin. This character ain't fit for command. Buckle up, Christianists. You're not gonna look so good when the spotlight is on you.

vbspurs said...

Hmmm. Your posts read like attempts to silence vbspurs through intimidation. It won't work, but it does reveal the workings your narrow mind. Sounds like your personal equipment is, to put it charitably, inadequate.

Whilst I concede that some men use this ruse of shouting obscenities to women in order to intimidate them, I think we're dealing with something else.

The aggressive awkwardness that overcomes men when they secretly like a girl, but feel she'll never pay them any mind.

I'd like to say here and now that I am off the market. This gal has eyes only for Titus.

Host with the Most said...

`


NEWS ALERT:


The New York Times is retracting it's earlier report today that Sarah Palin was a member of the Alaska Independence Party.


`

Randy said...

Obama supporters hate women, don't they?

Many of them do, but most of them reserve their hate for Republican women. They don't count.

former law student said...

host with the most, a word to the wise: repetitively posting the same off-topic message is the exact definition of spam.

Michael Savage is not a conservative by the way. He simply realized that pretending to be a hardcore right winger on the radio was far more lucrative than any honest work. And, as AirAmerica showed, no one will listen to liberal talk radio.

Few who stayed at Berkeley long enough to get a PhD in ethnobotany (under his real name, Michael Weiner) could resist liberalism, and MW simply lacks sufficient strength of character to be one of them.

Peter V. Bella said...

garage mahal said...
Really. He's all yours. Please claim him so he doesn't soil the party that neither likes him, nor wants him. Sanctimonious, hypocritical lying through his teeth self serving camera hog in love with his own voice. He should fit right in.

I did not know that Chuck Shumer spoke at the RNC tonight.

Host with the Most said...

loafingoaf,

You have absolutely no credibility on this blog.

Answer the question:

Why is Obama qualified to be President of the United States and why should anyone vote for him>

LoafingOaf said...

That's no news alert. Palin's HUSBAND was a member of the AIP. Palin herself, married to a member of the AIP, was simply very friendly to the AIP. A party with a platform of Alaska leaving the USA, and a party closely affiliated with the pro-theocracy American Constitution Party.

Palladian said...

"You got your woman in the VP candidacy. The magnifying glass is now on her and her supporters. It's looking ugly. I think she'll be a ruined woman before the month is out."

LoafingOaf, did you know that women's vaginas don't actually have teeth in them?

Michael said...

Can anybody tell me the last time a sitting President did not attend a convention for his party?

*And please, no hurricane silliness, the President has access to an airplane.

Randy said...

Oh, in that case: excuse me Michael and excuse me vbspurs!

vbspurs said...

Loafing, we laugh at your attempts to ruin a POW survivor and a woman who annually survives in -40 Fahrenheit weather.

Politics is a dirty business, and we all expect the hardballs to become spitballs every once in a while.

But if you expect surrender from these two people leading the Republican ticket, it's only because your side is the Party of Defeat.

Defeatism is mother's milk to you.

As you say, we'll see.

You in hell.

MC said...

michael said:
"You really don't think America's reputation has not been tarnished throughout the world?

Be honest now."
No, I don't. I've pointed out several countries straight off of the top of my head that have adopted significantly more pro-US stances and you haven't.

vbspurs said...

LOL, Randy! ;)

reader_iam said...
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Randy said...

Michael, off the top of my head it is Roosevelt in 1944. Presients didn't normally show up to conventions until Roosevelt.

Wendy said...

Just a note on Donna Brazile - she was tear gassed today. Really. Outside the convention hall. She hasn't released any details beyond confirming that it happened. I'm guessing the lady's a bit shook up.

Palladian said...

"Defeatism is mother's milk to you."

Jesus, Victoria, don't bring up the subject of mothers around LoafingOaf. There are obviously some... issues there.

Host with the Most said...

former law student,

I don't need a lecture from you. I have been here for 4 years, and I can hold the commenters responsible for drive-by attacks.

I despise Michael Savage, don't listen to him, and wonder why you self-righteously think you can associate me with someone such as that, which now puts you in the same class of human who trolls here seeking to stir up rather than discuss.

I have successfully participated in ridding this blog of over a half dozen trolls.

Now that you've been educated, please comment responsibly.

vbspurs said...

Outclassed, I am. Or maybe just in the wrong class.

Ooh, what a weird vibe I am suddenly getting from you, Reader. It's like you feel prickly at me of a sudden. Let's start over again? Olive branch?

Cheers,
Victoria

Randy said...

Lousy spelling in that post of mine above. Anyway, IIRC, Roosevelt accepted his nomination via radio hook-up from San Diego. He was touring military facilities at the time.

Chip Ahoy said...

Susan Estrich again. Forces me to automatically switch to my Susan Estrich voice, for its comic value. Now, with fringe, no less.

Host with the Most said...

loafingoaf,

YOU DO RESPOND!!!!!

YOU CAN READ!!!!! (maybe it;s the bold type you need)


NOW TRY THIS ONE:

Tell us why Obama is qualified to be President and why anyone should vote for him?

Synova said...

"mc,
You really don't think America's reputation has not been tarnished throughout the world?

Be honest now."

Actually, Michael, I don't think it has. Or... more accurately (going for the nuance) that there is reputation and there is popularity and there is... the scope of those things.

Half an eye to History will show that the popularity of the US has never been much to speak of, depending on whom you are speaking to. We're the upstart kid that the arbiters of culture and fashion love to hate. You can find published opinions that are negative to us starting before we were a nation and they will be amazingly applicable to sentiments today. All those people who helped us out during the Revolutionary War? Do you think they did it because they *liked* us and thought our noble experiment worthwhile? Please! The French, the Spanish... they were in long term conflict with England. It wasn't about *us* at all, no matter how we seem to insist (to this day) that every dang thing in the world centers around the United States.

To consider if our reputation or popularity have declined under GWBush, it's necessary to establish a baseline, first. And if you are under the delusion that Americans first started claiming to be Canadian when they traveled overseas one bright January morning in the year 2000 you truly *are* delusional.

And it didn't even happen during the Clinton years when we were the target of international hatred and scorn for (and you can google this if you cared) directly causing the deaths of 650,000 Iraqi children (Food for Oil was a *response* to the pure hatred and blame put on America for callously killing Iraqi children... though that turned out wonderfully, didn't it.)

And that's popularity... lets talk about reputation, shall we?

That's a separate thing. And our reputation prior to GWBush pretty uniformly sucked. We were either trigger happy or a paper tiger or both. We'd say we would support freedom and then not bother. We'd get all fired up to "help" but our help wasn't worth a single priceless American life and so we'd turn tail and run. Our words were empty and everyone knew it.

Now... GWBush may have shifted opinions about... some people and some nations like us more, some like us less... reputation wise, I don't think that we're worse off than we were, though our reputation is certainly *different* than it was.

So explain, in detail how our reputation (or popularity) has suffered?

And please try not to forget that there is more to the World... a whole heck of a lot more... than Europe.

And yet... even Europe doesn't seem to think we've got cooties.

Go figure.

former law student said...

They created their own problem in 1948 when they fled Israel on orders from the Mufti of Jerusalem.

Sure, just like the Louisianans are creating their own problem now by fleeing Gustav on orders from the Mufti of Baton Rouge.

MCD may think Arabs were foolish to flee their homes when told they were going to be a bloody battleground, but I think they were being prudent. To stay and risk getting one's head blown off does not sound like it's sustainable over the long run.

VBS: Though my late father had a 1911 pistol, he drilled into my head: when your life is on the line revolvers don't jam; pistols do. If you do get a pistol get something dirt simple like a Glock. He had a .45 six-shooter a John Wayne character would have envied.

And for recreation, try cowboy action shooting.

Chip Ahoy said...

Greta Van Susteren + Susan Estrich, face work, both of them.

Michael said...

Palladian says: "Obama supporters hate women, don't they? They hated Hillary and now they're absolutely batshit insane over the appearance of yet another woman to spoil their boy's club."

That is laughable at best:

American Research Group Polling: Among women (53% of likely voters), Obama leads McCain 52% to 40%.

A poll, led by Lake and Republican pollster Kellyanne Conway, shows that 53 percent of women hold mostly favorable views of Obama.

Thirty-seven percent of the women surveyed feel mostly favorable towards McCain.

vbspurs said...

Now... GWBush may have shifted opinions about... some people and some nations like us more, some like us less... reputation wise, I don't think that we're worse off than we were, though our reputation is certainly *different* than it was.

As I once said, America was resented in the 50s, hated in the 60s, and ridiculed in the 80s.

The Bush Era is just the beer chaser.

Y'all think the French twisted themselves in knots wondering why the world didn't/doesn't like them? No. And for that, I respect them.

And so do others.

Michael said...

synova,
Oh, come on, why not be honest about our reputation?

Do you ever read newspapers or books?

vbspurs said...

FLS, thanks. I'm leaning towards a Glock. :)

former law student said...

I don't need a lecture from you.

Just a friendly tip.

Sorry, the Savage comment was not directed at you. I'm trying to economize on the number of comments I make, by bunching thoughts together.

Michael said...

vbspurs,
Provide any links to articles or books that say we were "ridiculed in the 80s"...or the 90's?

You're full of it.

Host with the Most said...

`


palladian
former law student
victoria
reader


Why won't MICHAEL and LOAFINGOAF answer this question:

Why is Obama qualified to be President of the United States and why should anyone vote for him?



What are they afraid of?

Sloanasaurus said...

I was just reading about the Interstate Oil and Gas Commission (look it up on Google). It includes US and Canadian Oil producing states. The last meeting was held in Canada.

Sarah Palin, the Governor of Alaska, is the Chairman of the Commission. She was selected because of her previous work on Alaska's oil and gas commission

One of the biggest issues they are working on is the Alaska Gas Line. The largest construction project in North American History.

I guess its a long way from removing asbestos in Chicago housing projects.

Host with the Most said...

`


Michael you coward,

Answer this question:

Why is Obama qualified to be President and why should anyone vote for him?

Michael said...

Methinks HOST is suffering from a severe case of OCD.

Good Lord...

Michael said...

sloan is convinced Sarah Palin will be heading up the energy commission.

You know, because of Alaska and that oil thing.

It's getting late and funnier by the minute.

Host with the Most said...

michael,

You are a troll of the worst kind: incompetent.

Were you that way before the child pornography addiction or after?

vbspurs said...

Michael, I sense a complete lack of knowledge of history on your part.

Fortunately, I am here to help. Let's start the lesson.

Jericho, 9000 BC.

I hope you have time.

Synova said...

"Do you ever read newspapers or books?"

Not the same ones you do.

Yet I notice you don't supply any counter argument or examples. Why are the ones I offered not relevant?

It may be an issue, a matter of faith to you that our reputation (popularity) has suffered. Faith is believe without evidence.

But the world did not come into being in the year 2000. Some of us were here before that year and remember. Some of us do, in fact, read... and find out interesting things.

And what's more... some of us realize that the United States and the attitudes of people *here* do not represent the attitudes of the World. Hating the US has gotten to be a massive *domestic* pass-time. It's a sort of short hand for "wow, look how smart I am."

Like driving the right sort of car.

Peter V. Bella said...

LoafingOaf said...
I'm a vegetarian.

Now we know why you are mentally unstable.

Peter V. Bella said...

Palladian said...
Obama supporters hate women, don't they? They hated Hillary and now they're absolutely batshit insane over the appearance of yet another woman to spoil their boy's club.


Which is why Obama/Biden approved the smear campaign against Palin.

Host with the Most said...

sloan,

I deeply admire you writings here, as i have stated many times.

Why should a troll like Michael get to attack supporters of McCain/Palin and never have to answer the basic question:

Why is Obama qualified to be President and why should anyone vote for him?

would that help his credibility, or not?

Your thoughts?

Synova said...

"vbspurs,
Provide any links to articles or books that say we were "ridiculed in the 80s"...or the 90's?"

You made the first claim and have offered nothing. No links. No articles. No books.

Peter V. Bella said...

Wendy said...
Just a note on Donna Brazile - she was tear gassed today. Really. Outside the convention hall. She hasn't released any details beyond confirming that it happened. I'm guessing the lady's a bit shook up.

Was she aiding and abetting the criminals outside or was she one of them. Oh, and who really cares. Even if she was Tasered, no one would care.

Michael said...

vbspurs says: "Jericho, 9000 BC."

Oh, and I thought you said something about ridicule in the 80's.

Let me guess: Prozac?

P.S. Is HOST a real person? And if so, what's with the constant child porn references?

Host with the Most said...

michael,


Answer the question.

vbspurs said...

Let me guess: Prozac?

Much worse. History degree. My passion, history.

Now about those crazy Mesopotamians.

Sloanasaurus said...

Fred did an outstanding job recounting McCain's POW experience. But there is much more to tell. Read McCain's book. He had a harrowing experience. One of the most interesting parts is reading how he passed the days in solitary confinement. Think to yourself, what would you do if you were to spend months alone in a cell with no end to the confinement in sight and no one to communicate with, how would you keep your mind occupied? McCain and other prisoners came up with interesting ways to combat the desperation.

Much of his bravery came from his will not to let down his family honor to country. Both is father and grandfather were four star Admirals. And as everyone knows, his father was CINC of the Vietnam Theater while McCain was a POW.

Michael said...

Well, now we have HOST conferring with SLOAN so that does it for me.

I don't even want to guess where those who stay are heading from here.

Good night all.

Get a good night's sleep and hone your rhetorical skills for another day.

vbspurs said...

Synova wrote:

You made the first claim and have offered nothing. No links. No articles. No books.

The answer doesn't matter, so long as he gets a rise out of the commenters.

And that's pretty much a textbook definition of "Troll". ;)

BTW, thanks for being around, Synova and others. I realise when it hits 300, regular Althouse commenters tune out. Ann should be aware of that, because instead of building up traffic in these threads, it effectively ruins serious commentary.

No one wants to muck through 700 posts of troll spewage for the rare nugget of gold.

Sloanasaurus said...

sloan is convinced Sarah Palin will be heading up the energy commission.

I am convinced, because it's true. She is Chair of the commission. She is an expert on oil and gas matters especially in the way such matters interact with the government.

Being elected Chair of an important commission like the IOGCC is a reflection on Palin's competence on these issues.

peter hoh said...

Randy, re. 11:08. My first political crush was for Millicent Fenwick. She spoke to our Youth and Government statewide assembly. She wowed me.

And she's part of the reason I will never forgive Frank Lautenberg.

vbspurs said...

Fred did an outstanding job recounting McCain's POW experience. But there is much more to tell. Read McCain's book. He had a harrowing experience. One of the most interesting parts is reading how he passed the days in solitary confinement.

I've actually read my boyfriend passages from "Faith of my Fathers" (poor guy, he's a saint), but when Thompson said that McCain couldn't raise his arms to salute, due to the torture, he said "I didn't know that".

So yeah, the POW stories sometimes start to get repetitive, but it's good to be reminded of what sacrifice really means.

Randy said...

Peter: I remember you mentioning that before. Quite a character. My comment could have been better phrased - was thinking of the cast of visiting moonbats that have descended here recently when I wrote that.

Sloanasaurus said...

Why is Obama qualified to be President and why should anyone vote for him?

According to Tom Brokaw, Obama is qualified because he has been running for President for two years and has participated in lots of debates.

Randy said...

P.S. Peter: I've always thought there was no excuse for Frank Lautenberg, but then we are talking about New Jersey politics. ;-)

vbspurs said...

According to Tom Brokaw, Obama is qualified because he has been running for President for two years and has participated in lots of debates.

Even Eli said the same thing here last night.

His office staff numbers 2000, and he suggested that should be taken into consideration.

I cheeily replied that maybe Obama should ask Office Depot for a letter of recommendation.

Synova said...

"UNICEF announced that 500,000 child deaths have occurred as a result of the sanctions..."

Yeah... the world LOVED us before GWBush. We had a FABULOUS reputation.

Because, you know, sanctions are the GOOD way to kill children...

Host with the Most said...

micahel says:

Good night

As long as everyone knows that michael is willing to attack, not just McCain/Palin but consistently their supporters on this blog, and yet refuses to answer the question :

Why is Obama qualified to be President and why should anyone vote for him?

Sloanasaurus said...

but when Thompson said that McCain couldn't raise his arms to salute, due to the torture, he said "I didn't know that".

Yeah, that is why McCain has an odd way of gesturing.

I also read Obama's book Dreams of my father. Also an interesting read.

After reading Dreams, it made a lot of sense why Obama embraced Rev. Wright at the time he did, which is why it is even more tragic that Obama abandoned Rev. Wright.

LoafingOaf said...

It's quite possible that Althouse's commenters, whom she often hypes as oh-so-smart, have no clue about all the shit coming out about Palin. Althouse hasn't blogged a word about any of it.

Palin, two weeks ago, sat in a church as:

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.


Althouse went after Andrew sullivan for going after Palin. Maybe it's time Althouse went after Palin herself, instead of fantasizing about how cute Palin's daughter's wedding will be.

Her site is so "cruelly neutral" yet seems to overlook entirely all the weird stuff with Palin.

More stuff posted on Sullivan, a blog Althouse reads every day so she is well aware of it:

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was not subjected to a lengthy in-person background interview with the head of Sen. John McCain's vice presidential vetting team until last Wednesday in Arizona, the day before McCain asked her to be his running mate, and she did not disclose the fact that her 17-year-old daughter was pregnant until that meeting, two knowledgeable McCain officials acknowledged Tuesday... McCain had spoken with all of the others on his shortlist over the course of a selection process that went on for several months, but he was least familiar personally with the person he finally chose.

Althouse made a big point of saying she was happy Obama made a responsible selection for VP, as this appeals to neutral, centrist voters as herself. Why does she not post a single word about how responsible the selection of Palin was by McCain???

Host with the Most said...

loafingoaf,

Answer this question:

Why is Obama qualified to be President amd why should anyone vote for him?

blake said...

Wow, there's so much oral sex in this thread, it's like Titus never left!

Sloanasaurus said...

Althouse went after Andrew sullivan for going after Palin. Maybe it's time Althouse went after Palin herself, instead of fantasizing about how cute Palin's daughter's wedding will be.

It wouldn't be very creative for Althouse to start posting hate rants against Sarah Palin. There are so many out there already.

peter hoh said...

Evidence that the U.S. was ridiculed in the 1980s.

1986. I'm student-teaching in India. Meet an Irishman who tells me lots of stories about Reagan's trip to Ireland. At one point, a university bestowed an honorary degree upon him. Faculty, who were outraged by this, gathered in a local pub and handed out honorary doctorates to the local prostitutes. According to him, anyway.

1990s -- Simpsons becomes a big hit internationally. Why? See this article. Damn, I love Google.

The article might not be perfect proof of the U.S. being ridiculed by the rest of the world, but it speaks to the cultural perceptions of America by outsiders.

LoafingOaf said...

Althouse warned people they'd better be careful what they write about Palin because she's a woman (it will go down in the annals of feminism, blah blah blah). Maybe Althouse should be warned she should be careful what she ISN'T writing about Palin just because she's a woman. Why is she being so soft on Palin. blog her like you'd blog a man. There's a ton of nutty shit coming out on Palin, and Althouse overlooks it all. She was quite clear that Obama had better pick a running mate responsibly, someone who was fit for command. Why the lower standard about Palin?

Sloanasaurus said...

Why does she not post a single word about how responsible the selection of Palin was by McCain???

You don't get it do you. Palin is the potential return of the Reagan Revolution that so many conservatives have been hoping for. They are going crazy. It doesn't matter what people like you or Althouse thinks of the pick. Palin has amassed more political power in the last three days than any politican of recent memory. If she even hits a single at the convention tomorrow she will be around for years to come.

Althouse realizes that Palin's selection is very likely to be a giant freight train riding into history. Its better to be on the train than in front of it.

vbspurs said...

Yeah... the world LOVED us before GWBush. We had a FABULOUS reputation.

Synova, now that the odious troll is gone, I can talk about the topic.

The ironic thing is that our only real challenge as world leaders could come from Europeans.

They have the money, and infrastructure to do so. But they lack the will.

I don't see that changing any time soon.

LoafingOaf said...

Sloan: I doubt Palin will even be on the ticket by election day, but in any case, I'm quite confident Obama will win. What I'd like is fto see Althouse demonstrate her much hyped "cruel neutrality" once in awhile.

vbspurs said...

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

As coincidence would have it, I emailed Ann with this blogpost last night.

A certain little flag in her Governor's office caught my attention.

Maybe it was put there by her kids, or given to her by a Jewish rabbi, but I just happen to think that like a lot of Conservative Republicans today, she loves Israel.

Like me.

So nice try with the anti-semite meme.

Randy said...

I this your Dream Journal LoafingOaf? It's got your name on it.

vbspurs said...

He said something like "Oh please. I'll be a good boy". I told him that I really wanted to make love with him, but it just wasn't possible. Actually, I think I said "I am desparate to feel your cock inside me, but it's not going to happen."

Holy cock, Batman.

Sloanasaurus said...

So nice try with the anti-semite meme.

Wow! The left is really pulling out all stops to smear Palin. Next we will hear that she hasn't hired enough african americans in her administration. Or some controversial pardon related to innuit issues. There are probably all kinds of smears and half-truths that the left media can play with her interaction with big oil. Oh, the burdens of being a Governor!

The articles coming out about the issue with the trooper that issued death threats to her family is already morphing into a leftist program. The articles are all prickly issues about procedures, like whether her lawyer is getting paid correctly, or whether some state office space was accidently used. Its all designed to keep bringing up a story that has no merit. It's a classic smear tactic used by the left.

blake said...

Victoria--

I realize I haven't been reading all the links and comments but--WTF are you quoting?

Synova said...

"They have the money, and infrastructure to do so. But they lack the will."

It is sad. I agree.

I would like, very much, for the US to be able to stay home more. My heart of hearts is big on sovereignty and respecting it if at all possible. I just don't see how we can, in a world as globalized as this. Even if I can accept that it's just not my *job* to worry about injustice and horror in Burma or oppression in China or the mess oil and religion has made of the culture and economies of the middle east... it's come to a point where it's impossible to escape the blast-radius anymore.

And that goes for anyone, anywhere. Any country.

I donno. Maybe if we approach it like cleaning house... simply refuse to lift a finger until it's sooo bad that the slackers finally agree that the carpet needs vacuuming. Maybe some others would finally discover the will they lack.

Problem with that is... it's not a carpet. It's humans.

Sloanasaurus said...

Sloan: I doubt Palin will even be on the ticket by election day, but in any case, I'm quite confident Obama will win.

Obama has a chance to win, but Palin will be on the ticket on election day.

We fully understand your fear with Palin. She drives the left crazy. That is already apparent. Imagine a conservative woman. Traitor! The female Clarence Thomas!

The extent of the derangement is a surprise.

Sarah Palin - small government, free trade, low taxes, socially conservative, peace through strength - This is the Reagan Revolution and it is coming back.

John Stodder said...

But if you expect surrender from these two people leading the Republican ticket, it's only because your side is the Party of Defeat.

Defeatism is mother's milk to you.


Victoria, this is an interesting concept. It explains the past few days' "attack of 1000 minnows" assault on Gov. Palin. The Democrats actually believe she'll quit or McCain will dump her. They don't realize what a fight really is. They figure if someone throws a punch, your first move should be to figure out a way to stop the fight with no more punches, to sue for peace at any price, anything but having to punch back. I guess Democratic leaders figure that's how everyone thinks. The poor soldiers in Iraq -- they don't want to shoot their weapons at anybody. They don't want to take all these scary risks. If those maniacs in Iraq want to go about cutting throats and eventually seize power, we just have to let them, because first things first, all this fighting has to stop. Our poor soldiers need Democrats to help them stop the fighting!

The Democrats don't get that some people love a fight, were born to fight, identify with causes to fight for, especially their country, their commitment to an ideal. To Democrats, there is no cause worth actually fighting for. There is only the eternal hope of being loved, combined with the eternal search for the tall weeds.

Aaron Sorkin had it right, subconsciously, with his famous monologue for Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men." "You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall!" Democrats could exist outside the cocoon of protection provided by a bunch of people they don't want to know.

Tonight, the Democrats are thinking, "We really got her. The library story is de-va-sta-ting! Her husband in that crazy Alaska Independence party? A horror show! And her daughter? An embarrassment to God! She's going to just up and quit, right in front of everyone, because this is just so rough, she can't stand any more of it."

Because that's what they would do.

I don't like it that I'm talking about the Democrats in the third person. I'm a registered Dem and have been one since 1972. But the Internet has exposed a side to my party that is pretty disturbing. They let a bunch of scandal-mongering cowards take over the Narrative. And still, they call themselves the idealists.

I think I'm still an idealist. But I'm tired of pretending that the cynics who run my party are as idealistic as me.

Trooper York said...

Well there have been over 500 posts without one from me, so I salute you.

I read with interest readers advice to Simon and think it is well meant. I would offer different advice. What I think the heart of this blog is the interaction of certain regulars. That's what makes it fun. But the last few days have not been fun. I personally will not interact or respond to the trolls who have suddenly appeared here. On both sides. And after what a few of the regulars spouted, well they are dead to me.

Reasonable people can disagree. Key work reasonable.

When this first started I thought that a lot of this stuff was beneath contempt. I don't think blog hits are worth it, but I don't want to stop anyone from expressing their opinions, no matter how inane. Good luck to you.

Trooper York said...

Well there have been over 500 posts without one from me, so I salute you.

I read with interest readers advice to Simon and think it is well meant. I would offer different advice. What I think the heart of this blog is the interaction of certain regulars. That's what makes it fun. But the last few days have not been fun. I personally will not interact or respond to the trolls who have suddenly appeared here. On both sides. And after what a few of the regulars spouted, well they are dead to me.

Reasonable people can disagree. Key work reasonable.

When this first started I thought that a lot of this stuff was beneath contempt. I don't think blog hits are worth it, but I don't want to stop anyone from expressing their opinions, no matter how inane. Good luck to you.

blake said...

Meh. This, too, shall pass.

Althouse will (probably) be like it once was.

peter hoh said...

Randy @ 11:42 -- I know that your earlier comment wasn't directed at me.

Host with the Most: I'll admit that I'm glad no one has stuck a camera in my face and asked me why I think Obama is qualified to be president. I'm working on a response. I'll post it soon.

reader_iam said...

To those who have communicated to me externally: Thanks! (Sincerely.) Your points are well taken, and so I have removed my comments on the grounds of pointlessness and time well wasted.

Regards,

RIA

Theo Boehm said...

John Stodder, I hope you're right, and she proves to be a fighter and everything else in the image we've gotten of her.  I noticed her some time ago, when she started making moves to clean up the corrupt good-old-boy Republican network in Alaska.  But as much spunk as she has, she remains a small-town, small-state politician, with lots of small-potatoes contacts and interactions that can easily be turned into smear material.

Contrast that with Obama, who has obviously cultivated his tabula rasa all these years for just this occasion.  Yes, there is the baggage that he accumulated establishing his identity and bona fides as an African-American and as a Chicago politician.  But the suprising thing about Obama is just how blank his past is, and how obviously careful he has been over the years to maintain plausible deniability in so many areas.  This is the resumé of a man intent on just the chance that has been given him.

Palin, by way of contrast, has led a somewhat messy, honest, small-town life, not, perhaps, ever thinking she would ever find herself in this position.  She may be a fighter, but, seriously, there are plenty of GOP professionals who are sweating bullets wondering which shoe will drop next.

For all that, I have been shocked to my core by the treatment of this woman.  I am not young (although I like to think of myself that way), and I have been very politically aware since I was in junior high school when Kennedy was elected.  I have never seen anything like this.  And, I must say, there are experienced commentators I happened to hear today, from Al Hunt to Jay Severin, saying the same thing.

This is the most despicible thing I have ever seen in American politics, running just ahead of the grotesque, sexualized nonsense of the Justice Thomas nomination. (BTW, I'm no fan of Thomas.  He should have been opposed.  But the Senate of the United States, in all its majesty, discussing pubic hair on a Coke can? Unbelievable.)  The Palin nomination has depressed me seriously, and made me question what will become of our politics.

What has caused this?  Is it the internet, that dubious channel of our discourse?  Is it the crazed partisanship that has grown up since Vietnam, fueled by, among other things, boomer-driven "new journalism?"  Is it the general coarsening of our culture?

There are a thousand reasons one could advance, but the result is in our faces.  I suppose there is nothing left but to ask an updated version of the question Joseph Welch asked of another destructive, vindictive force all those years ago:

Let us not assassinate this woman further, you bloggers and members of the media.  You have done enough.  Have you no sense of decency, all of you, at long last?  Have you no sense of decency?

vbspurs said...

Victoria--

I realize I haven't been reading all the links and comments but--WTF are you quoting?


LOL. Hey Blake. :)

It's from the link Randy showed us purporting to be from one Loafing Oaf's Dream diary.

That strikingly little passage caught my eye.

Host with the Most said...

peter,and trooper ( if you are still reading),

All commenters should be welcome here, but there should also be a reasonable expectation of political civilty.

That, to me, means that anyone can discuss and even attack the political views or public persons of whichever side they wish to espouse for or against.

But the line should reasonably be drawn at attacking other posters or even Ann herself. On this particular post, several commenters have made anti-Palin comments, which to me is fine. But to begin these comments with stabs and asides about the character of the commenters who support Palin - and to continue when engaged - is not right. That is baiting.

And so, to give the baiters a chance to play nicely, I posed a question at first with no taunting, for the sake of discussion. But as their "no answer" began to show that the baiters had obviously no intention of answering at all - they just wanted to keep attacking other commenters, I (among a few others) continued to call them out.

These baiters add nothing to the discussion. They get great joy out of taunting and causing numerous thoughtful people to become frustrated or annoyed. Simon and palladian have several times done their best to restrain the baiters and somrtimes succeed. I am simply willing to go farther, to give the insensitive and malicious baiters a fight on their own terms. And franklky, I have seen numerous times of success. Luckyoldson disappeared for an extended period. His last good-bye comment a while back was preceded by my chasing his despicable commenting every day for almost 2 weeks. Even now he limits himself to only a few posts.

Fighting fire with fire because, frankly, as Alfred said in the last Batman movie, "And some men start a fire just to watch things burn." That describes the baiters.

Yes, I realize it's a form of "they started it". But there are decent people of all political persuasions that post here, and some sincerely are wsnting to make up their minds about serious issues.

A few less trolls in the conversation doesn't hurt.

peter hoh said...

Host with the Most: I'll admit that I'm glad no one has stuck a camera in my face and asked me why I think Obama is qualified to be president.

I don't particularly like the question. The Constitution lays out the qualifications. The rest is malleable, depending on the age in which we live.

The truth is, I don't think anyone is qualified to be president of the United States.

I don't think I can come up with an objective list of qualifications, against which I could measure all comers. I suppose I could come up with some ideal candidate, and then work up a check list to see how far the various candidates vary from that ideal. I don't see that working too well, either.

My sense is that my choice is much more subjective. The best I can tell you is how I am making up my mind.

The two questions that matter most: Of the choices before me, who do I think has the greater potential to rise to the challenges of the office? Who do I think has the greater potential to screw it up?

Additional questions: With whom has this person chosen to surround him/herself? Who is in this person's cheerleading section? To whom does this person owe favors?

Stance on issues? It matters some, but I think it matters more how a person approaches issues. Again, a very subjective judgment, but the most important issues that face a president are rarely the ones on which they have prepared white papers.

It is important to me that people keep their word. People who promise to run for no more than 2 terms in the Senate or 6 in the House better stick to that promise, even if I like them, but especially if I don't. :-)

I'm not going to be a hard-ass on people who make promises based on the current situation, who later have to break those promises because the situation has changed.

When George W. Bush campaigned in 2000, he said didn't believe in using our military for nation building. I accept that 9/11 changed the landscape for thinking about nation building. I just wish he had realized that he needed to replace a Defense Secretary who was wedded to the no nation building philosophy.

Finally, there's the gut check. Who do I trust more? Or who do I trust least?

Put Obama up against McCain, circa 2000, and I'm voting for McCain. McCain has disappointed me since then. Perhaps it's the stench from this administration.

How I wish McCain had pulled a Ted Kennedy and ran against Bush in 2004, back when we were, according to Fred Thompson, losing the war. (Go ahead and quibble, but prove to me that Fred referred to a specific time frame more narrow than some vague time before McCain proposed the surge.)

McCain was right about the surge. That doesn't mean that he's the right choice for the next set of challenges we face. So I don't always reward my vote based on past decisions.

Based on how the candidates have acted, what they have spoken, the decisions they have made over the past 4 years, and the positions they stake out today, I favor Obama. But I accept that it is a highly subjective choice. (FWIW, of the Republicans who ran for the nomination, McCain is the one I most preferred.)

I had/have a few deal-breakers and deal-makers in my head. Had Obama chosen Clinton as his running mate, I would no longer support him. There were certain VP picks that would have switched me to McCain, but he would have lost the nomination to a revolt in St. Paul had he chosen off my dream list.

As it is, I like Palin a lot, and I like the pick. I want to see her stand up to the pressure she's now under. If she can do it, then I'll be more impressed with her.

Some of the shit being tossed at her is unfair, but overall, the pressure she's under is a great test. If she plays the victim card, she's lost me.

By the same token, if I sense that Obama is playing the victim card, he loses me. (By the way, no fair inundating me with your sense of if/when/to what degree you think he might be playing the victim card. It's my sense of it that matters to me. My gut is very subjective, and doesn't like being told what it should sense.)

Now, when someone touts one set of criteria, and then does an about face, I get to ask questions. Does it then follow that I must outline my own criteria? I don't think so.

I object to McCain's raising questions about Obama's experience, and then selecting someone who is in that same league. You can argue all you want, but in my eyes, Obama's got a light resume, and so does Palin. That doesn't mean that there's no convincing me to accept the about face, but it won't be easy.

Rove gets no pass. He mocked the idea that Kaine, governor for 3 years, had relevant experience. He doesn't get to tout Palin without sounding like he's full of crap. Just because I point that out, doesn't mean that I have to defend Obama's record.

Okay, perhaps Rove could convince me that Palin's experience should be judged through a different lens than Kaine's, but he's got his work cut out for him. Better be more than "Obama is a liberal who wants to raise your taxes."

Is my vote cast in stone? Not yet, but it's Obama's to lose.

vbspurs said...

As it is, I like Palin a lot, and I like the pick. I want to see her stand up to the pressure she's now under. If she can do it, then I'll be more impressed with her.

Me too. I think a lot of eyeballs will be on her tomorrow especially, even from people who have no intention on voting, because they just never do.

Nicely written reply, too, Peter, I may say.

It's never easy to justify something so amorphous as why we prefer one candidate over the other (because if we're being honest with ourselves, it comes down to intangibles more often than not, and those rarely sound serious and logical).

vbspurs said...

Trooper, thanks. Your posts during these past two days have reminded a lot of people about what's really important. Your post on the Trig Palin rumour will live long in my heart...

LoafingOaf said...

host, you're the fucking troll. the idea that i'm supposed to drop whatever i'm doing and spend time writing an essay to you on the topic of your choosing at the time you demand it is absurd.

but, since you don't think that's absurd, write me an essay about sarah palin's qualifications to be commander in chief and have it in this thread by the time i wake up in the morning. thanks.

Host with the Most said...

Peter,

You have my undying admiration for your thoughtful - and thought-provoking - comment just now.

For me, It's McCain - has been since February of this year. I am more conservative than he, but I never got on the he's not a real Republican band-wagon. I actually appreciated the gang of 14 and believe that it's actions during the Alito hearings saved more for this country long-term by restraining the Democrats in Congress now.

It is "shared values" for me, but that doesn't mean that I don't admire the way in which you and others come to a decision.

Lastly, I hate with a passion the basic dishonesty that comes with "spinning" in these election cycles. On both sides.

But that is another discussion.

Thank you again, Peter.

So would that be so hard for our trollin "friends"?

I guess we already know the answer to that.

Host with the Most said...

loafingoaf,

I will happily answer your question.

But I asked first. And you have yet to answer mine.

Prove to everyone here that you're not a troll by answeriug the question. No essay needed. If you can answer without being derisive of everyone else's viewpoint, you too will be treated respectfully.

The ball is now in your court.

Everyone is watching.

vbspurs said...

John Stodder wrote:

Our poor soldiers need Democrats to help them stop the fighting!

Halp us John Karri. ;)

I think you finessed my point perfectly, John. Many Democrats feel that you are your brother's keeper, an honourable impulse.

What gets them into trouble is then imagining what the brother wants, because they know better, and then telling him it's for his own good when he receives it.

This impulse used to be politically Conservative prior to 1945. It was what turned so many people off from conservatism: a protectionist, patriachal attitude.

I am an anti-Statist for this reason.

Cheers,
Victoria

LoafingOaf said...

like i said, host. you're a troll. stick one of palin's mooseburgers up your ass.

vbspurs said...

Let us not assassinate this woman further, you bloggers and members of the media. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, all of you, at long last? Have you no sense of decency?

Theo, wow! You channelled my forthcoming post on this, when I was going to use the words used against Senator McCarthy about this situation.

vbspurs said...

You're the troll, Loafing. Now stop wasting our time.

LoafingOaf said...

this guy has been demanding i write him an essay on the topic of his choosing at the time of his choosing all night long, never getting the hint that i was ignoring him and don't give a shit what he's saying to me. but you say i'm the troll. fuck off. i can post my opinion just like anyone else, which is all i've ever done. sorry if i attacked simon, the pretentious little twit who always tries and write like a judge in mere message boardsm and kept calling me a "liar" for saying mccain did minimal vetting of palin and then said the new york times can't be believed when their reporting proved him wrong.

palin's going down the tubes. post what you like. i don't care. what's sad to me is how mccain - a senator i used to really admire (and you all used to smear in the most despicable fashion) - is destroying his reputation to please the religious right.

peter hoh said...

Victoria, Host, thanks for the kudos.

Host, from your 1:32 comment: But the line should reasonably be drawn at attacking other posters or even Ann herself.

Is that a standard you wish to hold for yourself?

I realize that the whole Palinoscopy has made a lot of people leave their comfort zones.

Trolls suck. They suck the life and civility out of the salon that is Althouse.

A couple regulars have resorted to calling people names -- not terribly unusual, but recently, some of them are using slurs that are a bit beyond the pale. Not that I'm a shrinking violet, but there's a point where cussing is only effective at pointing out the limitations or frustrations of the person employing those words.

I've been tempted, but I post knowing that I'm attaching my real name to everything I write.

Sometimes, I think we'd all be better served if we dropped the anonymity, but I realize that's not going to happen.

Free people are free to make free choices about exercising their right to free speech. God bless America.

Now STFU.

JK :-)

vbspurs said...

What has caused this? Is it the internet, that dubious channel of our discourse? Is it the crazed partisanship that has grown up since Vietnam, fueled by, among other things, boomer-driven "new journalism?" Is it the general coarsening of our culture?

Theo, more commentary on your fantastic reply (wow, you, John and Peter made wading through this mucky thread worthwhile).

I don't know the answer.

I tend to think, like you, that this "Here comes everybody" technology-driven communications expansion has made it easier for the chatter to increase, and the level of the chatter to be vicious with the weakening of social norms after the 60s.

But the populist chatter was also, tellingly, the case after Pamphleteers starting printing their penny-sheet screeds.

I think few Presidents have been so slandered and reviled in their day, as Andrew Jackson.

You'll notice that he too was one of those "Man of the People" types which I likened Palin to earlier.

When all is said and done, the egalitarian Americans shockingly resemble many elitists. Oh, the American public may say they want the common man to advance in society, to become President.

But is that really true?

Isn't it more correct to say we want a man (or woman) to come from humble roots, because it speaks well of our self-perpetuating narrative, but they do not want them to act in a rough or common way?

We also like candidates to have a solid educational background.

In the days when University degrees were unusual -- even then American Presidents invariably had higher education degrees.

But after the GI Bill, ironically, when University degrees were accessible, an Ivy League education became even more a statement of excellence.

In America, anything is possible -- but I see that person with a degree from a Community College would find it near impossible to become US President.

Palin is so easily dismissed because she went to the University of Idaho. That's sad.

I find that the Democratic Party is a party of self-hating. Not just to be American, but not to really want to understand, not to mention "celebrate" (odious word) the common man.

It's like the Clintonian BoBo culture, where everything is Starbuckified, urban and upwardly mobile, is where all Americans should be.

And some are still very happy to be at Denny's.

I feel some Democrats, exemplified by Senator Obama, cannot relate to a person like Sarah Palin, with her rural, just-folks background of self-reliance and grit.

Because by every piece of logic we know about American political history, a woman like Sarah Palin should by rights be Democratic.

A woman. Blue-collar. Non-elite.

Tell me why she's a Republican, and I'll tell you why the Democrats lose Presidential elections.

Cheers,
Victoria

vbspurs said...

I know everyone has gone to bed, and probably didn't read my reply above about Americans maybe not being such champions of the Common Man as thought, but this is what I mean.

From a Fox News exposé on Alaskan politics:

Stevens may have deep ethics issues. But his electoral problems could pale compared with electoral issues facing the state’s lone congressman, Republican Rep. Don Young.

Even his Republican colleagues agree that Young is one of the most cantankerous members of the House. He roosts in a chair toward the back of the House chamber and shouts catcalls at fellow members during votes. He heckles the presiding officer when he or she makes a parliamentary ruling he doesn’t agree with. Last year, Young even threatened fellow Republican Rep. Scott Garrett, N.J., on the floor.

“Those who bite me will be bitten back,” excoriated Young.

During one debate, Young even wielded the pubic bone of a walrus on the House floor.


A pubic bone from a FRIKKIN walrus? Are you kidding me?!

I can hear Democrats now.

But you know, even generations ago this attitude might've been folksy, and somewhat winked at, but it was still not encouraged from legislators.

It's crass. The story is messy. We expect better from our politicians.

We want them to represent us, but with that honour comes a subtle expectation for leaders to be better than us.

Else why are they leading us?

I grew up with this anti-populist attitude. I reject it.

blake said...

Think of it this way, Victoria: How often do Americans actually get to elect one of their own?

First time I can recall.

Unless, maybe Carter counts.

vbspurs said...

Hey, Blake. Fancy you up. :)

Carter counts. Truman counts. Andrew Johnson too. And of course, Andrew Johnson.

Lincoln would count, except he married up and his rail-splitting ways had been given a veneer of gentility.

Look, Reagan was the son of an ititerant shoe salesman, and Irish-American drunkard. He was a man of the people too, as was Clinton. Ford wasn't from the elite either. But by the time they got to 1600, they seemed more polished or educated than the ones I listed.

vbspurs said...

/Jackson.

blake said...

I figured you meant Jackson.

It's not really a big deal for me to be up; it's three hours earlier here....

vbspurs said...

Right!

I have a dad who goes to sleep at 9 PM (no, his name isn't GW Bush), so even midnight is late for some. ;)

cubanbob said...

The dims are making all this noise about Palin's daughter to cover up up the fact that one of Biden's son is neck deep in a fraud scandal along with Biden's brother. The bloviating hair plug can't control his family either. By the way, why is the Chosen One's brother living on a buck a day? At least the Palin's stick by their own.

Speaking of treason and succession, wasn't Jefferson Davis a democrat?

If the bloviating hair plug were to die, who would be the president? Isn't the hair plug a bit too reckless with his choice for president?

Nora said...

vbspurs said...
... BTW, Brit Hume quoted an African-American columnist, Fatimah Ali, of the Philly Daily News.

Commenting on the now full Republican ticket, she made a not so subtle threat, couched in prediction terms, in case Obama isn't elected.
...

If she's not careful, she can be legitimising the impulse for people to burn cars on November 5th, in case her Obama wish doesn't come true.

Cheers,
Victoria

Just shows the campany Obama keeps, doesn't it. His proponents are trying to terrorize us with the threats of violence. Nice job, Ms Ali.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger J. said...

not the prettiest thread I ever read, but some real gems amongst the muck. This Palin thing will have blown over by the first of next weekend--The dems simply threw everything they could against her in the most egregious of manner--Tactically, they fired all their artillery and will soon be out of rounds. Palin was wise to wait, because she will be center stage tonite and can respond if she chooses.

The only thing left for the dems now is to continue to recycle these rumors, but each one keeps getting swatted away.

I am much more interested in the response of Barack Obama--he condemned these things but only in the mildest of terms--for me, it was a test of moral leadership; and he failed and failed miserably. Clearly he cannot control the fringes of his party and that means he will have absolutely no control of the bureacracy he, god forbid, might lead. He remains a blank slate characterized only by overarching ambition.

The dust will settle after the round of Sunday talk shows this weekend, and the campaign will begin in earnest. This democratic party is truly the McCarthyites and their conduct, along with their running dogs who comprise the MSM, have done American a genuine disservice.

Michael_H said...

I am compelled to post this disclaimer.

I, Michael_H, am not any of the other posters whose name includes some form of the word 'michael'.

Especially the annoying 'michaels'.

Nor am I posting under any other name in addition to Michael_H, especially those "men" who delight in slapping around a 17 year old pregnant girl. Assholes.

hdhouse said...

I agree that McCain's POW time was extraordinary. Now would someone please explain how being a POW and essentially loosing his mind is a credential for President?

What other big thing has he done? Just curious. If the GeeOPee'rs have to trot out that same song and give it as a prelude to any question/answer posed, then this will be the most boring candidate ever.

Q. Mr. McCain, what would you do about healthcare?
A. Well I had a lot of time to think about health care when I was a POW.
Q. Mr. McCain, what do you think about the continued pay differential between men and women?
A. As a former POW and torture victim, I can relate....

Endless saga...endless.

Paco Wové said...

"To Democrats, there is no cause worth actually fighting for. There is only the eternal hope of being loved..."

Just thought that bore repeating. Great quote, John.

Fen said...

I'm a vegetarian. Guess what, Palin? "Anti-Sex-Ed = Pregnant teen in shotgun marriage."

Sex ed also= Pregnant teen in shotgun marriage. So whats your point?

Fuck off.

That you chose to be a vegetarian to compensate for all the babies killed in your pursuit of casual sex?

Hows that going for you? Feel good about yourself yet?

Fen said...

Just shows the campany Obama keeps, doesn't it. His proponents are trying to terrorize us with the threats of violence.

Yup. And just guess who will be running Obama's mandatory work camps.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Okay, well this thread is going from totally mahhhhvellous to possibly retarded."

Possibly?

I'm avoiding the Palin threads until at least after her speech tonight. Way too many trolls and way too many people feeding the trolls.

Although I do wonder. Are these people on the Obama staff? Do they get paid for what they do on this and other message boards? That can't be an effective spending of money. And if they are volunteers, again, it is not an effective use of resources. I know if you asked a campaign if they would want someone to spend hours fighting in the comments section of some blog or to spend hours working in the local offices of their campaign, the decision should be easily the latter.

Roger J. said...

ummm--HD: I certainly agree that being a POW does not prepare you to be president; in fact, I think Fred Thompson said that very thing. Now is John McCain "milking" is POW experience; probably so but unfortunately this country has fixation on POWs (which is fairly recent going back only to the Viet Nam war). However, that the political reality, so better learn to accept it.

Oh--other big things he has done? Are are either totally uinformed or willfully obtuse. You must have overlooked his time in the House and Senate for the last thirty years. About five times the length of public service as Obama. How about that McCain-Feingold thing? You surely werent serious were you? (BTW--McCain-Feingold is as abomination, but SCOTUS felt it passed muster.)

Sloanasaurus said...

what's sad to me is how mccain - a senator i used to really admire (and you all used to smear in the most despicable fashion) - is destroying his reputation to please the religious right.

Funny stuff!

So what is your excuse for no longer respecting Lieberman. Is he now a tool of the neo-conservatives?

It never stops.

Liberal Imperialist said...

I'm a vegetarian. Guess what, Palin? "Anti-Sex-Ed = Pregnant teen in shotgun marriage."

So you're protein deficient. Probably explains the inability to deal with facts. Such as the fact that Bristol Palin went to public school and received standard Sex Ed, including instructions on contraceptive use.

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