January 8, 2008

Let's talk about the New Hampshire primary.

Are you watching the results on TV? What channel? I'm hanging out on MSNBC at the moment. I knocked NBC the other day, so I want to make a point of saying I love listening to Tim Russert and Tom Brokaw, who are on Chris Matthews' show right now. I was doing a little CNN before, but it got a little too Lou Dobbsy, so I changed channels. And let's give Fox News equal time. (I'm back in New York City, and I had a hard time finding Fox News, which isn't clustered with the other news channels the way it is in Madison. The New York cable channels are annoyingly jumbled.)

Anyway, the polls close soon. Are you all excited?

ADDED: Hmmm... Mitt Romney was arrested long ago for sledding on an ice block on a golf course. And he was once in a car accident in Paris in which some French cop wrote "Il est mort" on his passport. (Source: Fox News.)

AND: Fox News is saying Obama wins, but it's not a blowout, so Hillary can claim some species of victory. And McCain over Romney, but "too close to call."

MORE: Zombie! Will Hillary fight her way back?

AND: MSNBC calls the Republican contest for McCain, while the Democratic race is too close to call! Ooooo!

AND: Mitt: "Another silver." He wants the gold, but who's done better than 2 silvers (and Wyoming gold)?

MORE: Wow! What a disappointment for Obama-lovers. Can it be that Hillary and her crying turned things around? Did people see how much Bill Clinton wanted to keep going and feel sympathy? Or is it a case of: New Hampshire voters not wanting to be told what to do? But when I read of the huge turnout, I assumed a big Obama victory. I guess her collapse was quite odd, and the news that it wasn't real makes sense.

AND: Huckabee speaks. Expresses enthusiasm at doing at all well. "This ole southern boy... in New England...."

AND: McCain speaks. The chant is "Mac is back." He can't call himself "The Comeback Kid," because he's not a kid. But it's a great comeback. "I'm going to New Hampshire, and I'm going to tell you the truth.... I talked to the people of New Hampshire. I reasoned with you." Did anyone ever concede like that before? I reasoned with you. Beautiful. [ADDED: Mmmm.... "concede" isn't quite the right word!]

AND: Uuuuggghhhh.... I'm reeling in shock! Hillary overcame The God Obama? Noooooooo!

AND: Did people just get disgusted with the hype?

197 comments:

Verso said...

a little too Lou Dobbsy

LOL!

Oh, and congratulations on calling the Ron Paul thing. I haven't heard a word about it on the news today, though I haven't been able to listen too closely.

Rachel Maddow is the best. She's one of the best reasons to watch MSNBC.

ZPS said...

I hope Hillary pulls it off tonight. And then I want Edwards in South Carolina. I want utter chaos until February 5th when the rest of the country can vote and make this thing more fair.

George said...

NPR interviewed two NH voters tonight.

The first guy said he voted for Clinton, I think, because he said America needed a woman or Earth Mother or Mommy in the White House.

The second guy broke down and cried when he said he voted for Obama.

I swear this is true.

Meade said...

The whole thing is making me tear up as we speak.

Kirby Olson said...

I'm just bored with the change word. I hope the whole primary season doesn't keep using this term without it at least morphing. What about some synonyms:

"I will alter this country beyond recognition!"

"Vote for me: let the transmutation begin!"

I hope at some points words and phrases like changeling, change of life, short-changed, quick-change artist, you are just so much small change, and that we can even have stupid rhetoric like, "He doesn't want change, he wants to nickel and dime us to death!"

I mean, I'm not laughing a lot, to be honest.

I suppose it would have all been lost on the people of Iowa and New Hampshire anyway. Does it get any better than this?

Verso said...

I swear this is true.

Which? That we need a "woman," an "Earth Mother," or "Mommy in the White House."

You can't recall which of those three he said, but you swear it's true? How is that possible?

MISS said...

Hillary is looking strong so far!

EnigmatiCore said...

I'm so excited I could just knit a sweater.

JackDRipper said...

ZPS said...I hope Hillary pulls it off tonight.

Plus off what? Her bra? I hope so. I want to see more of that cleavage she unveiled awhile back, that MILFy tease.

But you know if she loses this campaign the only thing she's gonna pull off is Bill's carrot.

Man she gonna kill him once and for all. I just know it!

George said...

Verso--

The guy said he voted for Hillary because "I think we need a woman, a Mom, an Earth Mother in the White House." (something like that....)

And the next guy cried.

(And the reporter said that she couldn't believe it!)

As God is my witness.

Verso said...

George,
That's fascinating. And creepy!

Earth mother indeed. *shakes head*

Sloanasaurus said...

Its hard to imagine that I would ever cheer for Hillary, but I am doing so tonight. Obama presents far more danger to this country. If Hillary wins or even loses by a few points, it will be a great upset considering how much the media claimed she was done.

Revenant said...

It would be interesting if both conventions ended up being brokered.

JackDRipper said...

Remember people this is about winning delegates NOT merely the largest number of votes per state. This is the primary not the general election with an all or nothing electoral college.

You'd never know that from the MSM puppet heads.

reader_iam said...

Fox's coverage has been a bit odd, especially given the hyping (I thought last night's cutaway was priceless). Just weird, that reverse of things with regard to McCain/Romney and Clinton/Obama.

Oh, and the CNN bits with Dobbs at the fore have also been odd.

What on earth is up with all of that?

MadisonMan said...

It would be interesting if both conventions ended up being brokered.

Extremely so, in the age of blogging. Let the cigar sales begin!

reader_iam said...

The first guy said he voted for Clinton, I think, because he said America needed a woman or Earth Mother or Mommy in the White House.

OK, this gets my vote for biggest gag line so far (double meaning and all).

Brrrbwahhbrrr.

ZPS said...

I swear to God this is true.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer just told Candy Crowley that she had a nice ass.

Scout's honor.

reader_iam said...

Whew/whoo, getta load of the dancing and crow-eating over at Fox on the very issue.

Oopsies lead to such messy clean-ups, sad but true.

reader_iam said...

In your judgment, ZPS, would that be true?

Fen said...

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Huckabee. Not a fan of McCain, but he's likely the best spoiler candidate.

ZPS said...

Candy Crowley certainly is a fine specimen...but I'm more into Anderson Cooper, if you get my drift.

Fen said...

Oopsies lead to such messy clean-ups, sad but true.

Yup, that was stupid of FOX.

Palladian said...

"but I'm more into Anderson Cooper, if you get my drift."

Forget Miss Vanderbilt. Give me Bill Hemmer.

Middle Class Guy said...

All day the media and the so called experts have claimed that the primary will hinge on the independent voters, of whiche there are many in NH.

These are the unpredictable people. As Mike Royko used to say-there is only one accurate poll, the final vote tally.

TROBlog said...

I despise Hillary. But wouldn't it be fun to see her comeback and slay the new "inevitable" candidate, Obama? It's just so delicious.

rhhardin said...

You are not a native American.

There must have been Indian slurs.

ZPS said...

"Give me Bill Hemmer."

God you're so right. He looks like he knows his way around the bedroom. But ever since he moved from CNN to Fox I haven't been able to fantasize about him as much. I just don't trust him.

(As if that matters!)

Middle Class Guy said...

I think all of the media outlets will eat crow tonight.

EnigmatiCore said...

Romney's toast.

Edwards should be as well unless he wins SC.

Very surprising outcome on the Democrat side, regardless of who ends up ahead at the end. The media certainly made it sound like Obama was going to wipe the map with her.

Meade said...

"You are not a native American."

Is he even American? I don't think so.

Fred said...

Fox: Mitt Romney says "I got another silver!" and he says, "I got one gold in Wyoming.. thanks Wyoming!"

Then he congratulates McCain for running a first class campaign. Good move considering the criticism re: his attack ads.

Good stuff.. the GOP race will be pretty exciting throughout.. and Hillary Clinton / Barack too close to call -- Wow! If Clinton takes it, maybe the 'humanizing' effect of her tears did good.

Mitt Romney's also talking about how people think Washington is broken, brings up oil, health insurance, education, the budget...

Mitt sounds like a Democrat tonight, I think he got the memo that the more liberal of the conservative crop will probably win the GOP nomination.

MSNBC was reporting earlier that 93% of Democrats and 50% Republicans are really not happy with the Bush administration... is that why Mitt Romney is shying away from the tough Iraq talk?

EnigmatiCore said...

So, what are we going to end up with, about a 5 point margin on the Democratic side for Obama, and an 11 point win for McCain?

Middle Class Guy said...

Am I missing something here? They are alread determining the winners with only 25% of the precincts reported or is there a time lag?

Gahrie said...

JackDRipper:

Anyone calling Hillary a MILF immediately surrenders any credibilty they ever had.....

EnigmatiCore said...

Ann, I'm not so sure that the early results will hold up.

Cedarford said...

Press rooting for Huckabee and their "hero" McCain, as well as new God Obama leads them to obscure matters like this Huck idiocy without comment. They want a "horserace" so they only shoot at the frontrunner in hopes of more "comeback kids" for a "tighter horserace".

The Huckster suggested that if he was President, that ME Peace would be gained through forceable "Transfer" of "so-called" Palestinians to Egypt or Saudi Arabia where "there is lots of land".

Am Prospect: Huckabee is apparently so ignorant of the history of Israel and Palestine that he doesn't think to suggest Jordan as a Palestinian homeland, which tends to be the more commonly preferred site for transfer among ultra-Zionist rejectionists.

Not that we needed any more proof that Mike Huckabee's actual knowledge of the Middle East ends with Revelation, but it's a sign of the tragic imbalance in the discussion over the Israel-Palestine conflict in the U.S. that a statement this radical and offensive by a leading candidate for president can pass almost completely without comment by the mainstream media.

Fred said...

Media and Polls were completely wrong about the Democratic side..

Verso said...

Can it be that Hillary and her crying turned things around? Did people see how much Bill Clinton wanted to keep going and feel sympathy? Or is it a case of: New Hampshire voters not wanting to be told what to do?

Some people like Hillary, and are supporting her. I've watched a lot of campaign coverage on C-SPAN, and she definitely has a base of adoring fans. It's possible that votes for Hillary are in fact votes FOR Hillary and not merely a side-effect of some other phenomenon.

Roger said...

Gee--should HRC take NH how will the culinary workers union endorsement go? Poor folks are going to have it tough!

I agree with Rev re brokered convention--the prospect for that becomes much greater if the delegates split fairly evenly following the Feb 5 super event.

ron st.amant said...

I'm watching CNN...(among other things) Bill Bennett says the results show Guliani is still strong in the race...

two primaries, drawing under 10% and finishing fourth or less...

I want some of whatever Bennett is smoking.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Can it be that Hillary and her crying turned things around? Did people see how much Bill Clinton wanted to keep going and feel sympathy? Or is it a case of: New Hampshire voters not wanting to be told what to do?

Maybe they watched the Saturday debate and were unimpressed with new front-runner. As the Washington Post pointed out (and you note in another post here), his answer showed that he wasn't really prepared for the question about Iraq. He should have been. His excessively partisan response was not in keeping with his claim to be a uniter not a divider. Just old fashioned politics as usual. And if it is all really just old-fashioned politics as usual, then why not reconsider that expert team? *LOL* I am enjoying Edwards's continuing implosion, though, particularly after all of the left-leaning pundits on the internet raving about his debate performance.

ron st.amant said...

Clinton a close second can be spun in a good way for her. If Obama wins the first two he's clearly the front-runner. Edwards is essentially done.

McCain is the media darling, Romney needs South Carolina but I don't think it will happen. Huckabee's third is strong for a guy polling less than me in NH a month ago and I'm not even in the race.

If South Caroina goes something like a Obama-Clinton and McCain-Huckabee one-two (either way) the races will finally be clear. But there's a long way still.

garage mahal said...

If you close your eyes John McCain could be Christian Slater.

JackDRipper said...

EnigmatiCore said...Romney's toast.

Right! Because he's way behind in the delegate count. Got the list of delegates won per candidate? It might be helpful when determining the toast factor.

Gahrie said...JackDRipper:

Anyone calling Hillary a MILF immediately surrenders any credibilty they ever had.....


True, if I was serious. Does toast go with carrots and onion rings, that's the real question.

ron st.amant said...

I respect John McCain and his service. And the text of his acceptance speech is inspiring...but the delivery is so wooden. It's so flat.
But the message of 'promise and hope' is spot on.

Revenant said...

I'm not watching TV (I seldom do), so I'm just relying on the online results -- but why are people talking like Hillary's already won? The most up-to-date results I've seen so far show her up a mere 2% with over half the results still unreported.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Got the list of delegates won per candidate?"

Sure do. He's won 27 and needs 1,191 for the nomination.

And the two states he invested the most time and money in, including one in his backyard, went for his opponents fairly convincingly.

Worst for him, his path to the nomination was by being the consensus conservative. But Huckabee has sucked off all of the social conservatives, leaving him to battle McCain and Giuliani for the moderates, the defense conservatives, and the fiscal conservatives. And both of them are better positioned with those groups than Romney.

He's got the money left, but I just don't see a path to the nomination for him.

The Democratic side is much more interesting, especially with the results as close as they seem to be tonight. A narrow Obama win, or a Clinton win, and she's the favorite again. Had Obama won big, she was in real danger of falling by the wayside. But now there is a real contest, and it will be fun to watch.

john said...

Gahrie:

The Moro Islamic Liberation Front?

I don't think HRC would belong to that group, even if MISS touts that bumper sticker on the back of her Volvo.

PatCA said...

Wow, beautiful indeed. McCain's speech was a surprise, and great, great. Holy cow! It moved me tremendously. I can't believe someone else wrote it, but if so, McCain owned it. He was awfully lonely out there when everyone doubted the surge, but now is vindicated as the only serious war leader among the candidates.

Again, a great speech and wonderful appearance.

Maybe I can forgive him for amnesty.

Middle Class Guy said...

Do you know what really would be cool. Another "Dewey wins" moment.

When all the actual votes are tallied and the real numbers versus the projections are validated, all the media results are nullified.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

You are right, Rev. It all depends where the votes are coming from. She hasn't won, but it definitely is not the 10-point blow-out for Obama that was predicted yesterday. Reminds me of California, where vote totals almost always look like a GOP victory with as many as 60% of the votes reported. Unfortunately for the GOP, almost none of those 60% include Los Angeles County, which invariably votes 60-40% for the Democrat.

Fred said...

Rev: I think it's because most bought into the 'Hillary is getting slam
dunked by 10%' punditry.

The fact that it is close at this point is pretty surprising. It still may go for Obama, the college towns haven't been counted yet and the voter count from Dartmouth is 2k more than expected.

Revenant said...

He's got the money left, but I just don't see a path to the nomination for him.

He has the most delegates of any of the candidates, and plenty of money on top of that.

So who, exactly, is going to pull ahead of him. McCain? McCain's got big money problems and is the only candidate who entered the Republican race already widely hated by many Republicans. Huckabee? His Bible-thumping good ol' boy schtick isn't going to play in most of the bigger states that have lots of delegates and, again, he's got money problems. That leaves Rudy, who might indeed be a threat IF he does well in the big primaries.

Then there's the possibility that nobody will wind up with a majority of delegates and the convention will be brokered. Giuliani and Huckabee are both too divisive to be compromise candidates, which leaves McCain and -- you guessed it -- Romney. Of the two, Romney will probably have the most delegates and therefore be the logical choice for Presidential pick.

JackDRipper said...

Here's a link to keep on the delegate count:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/candidates/

Middle Class Guy said...

I'm going over to the Food Network. Throw Down is much more interesting.

vnjagvet said...

Clnton is still ahead by nearly 4400 votes and four percentage points with 47% of precincts counted.

I suspect that there was a bit of a sandbag from the Clinton camp both inflating expectations for Obama and reducing them for Clinton.

If my suspicions are well founded, that is one of the more brilliant moves in recent political history.

Also, I suspect the vaunted organizational skills of the Clinton campaign were used to good advantage in NH.

Maybe she was playing possum with her recent "emotional" display.

EnigmatiCore said...

"He has the most delegates of any of the candidates"

He has 2.27% of the delegates he needs to win the nomination.

Huckabee has 1.68% of the delegates he needs.

If you think that delegate lead means anything, you are wrong.

What matters is that in the states where he camped his ass for the past year and pumped everything he has, one of which is in his backyard, he got thumped.

It's unlikely to get better for him.

JackDRipper said...

EnigmatiCore said...He's (Romney) got the money left, but I just don't see a path to the nomination for him.

You need to improve your vision 'cause Romney is the next President!

EnigmatiCore said...

If you insist.

He's unlikely to get my vote, but I wish him well.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

It is interesting that, looking at the larger cities in NH (that have mostly reported), Clinton rolled up some pretty large leads in them, running as much as 15 points ahead of Obama. It is the small counties where Obama is heavily outpacing (and there are a lot of small counties in NH!)

vnjagvet said...

At 56% HC ahead by 3500. It is narrowing again.

EnigmatiCore said...

Still not sure that Hillary's lead will hold. Kinda hope it does, although I'd rather vote for Obama than her.

But I guess New Hampshirians suffer from White Guilt less than Iowans. Either that or the Bradley Effect is real.

George said...

Ol' Billy Boy is gonna go down Carolina way, and, brother, he is going to talk the talk from Gaffney to the Strand. Barack's a good fella', but he don't know grits from greens. It will be a treat.

Courtney said...

Am I the only woman who is insulted by the commentators on MSNBC who are suggesting that the NH women who voted for Clinton did so out of sympathy? Feeling that she was picked on at the ABCNews debates and because she cried yesterday? People need to give women more credit than that.

Revenant said...

What matters is that in the states where he camped his ass for the past year and pumped everything he has, one of which is in his backyard, he got thumped.

He didn't "get thumped". He came away with 12 delegates to Huck's 17, and 3 delegates to McCain's 4. Meanwhile he picked up 8 more delegates in Wyoming; Huck and McCain got 0. You're acting like the percentages matter, and they don't. So McCain beat him by a mile in NH -- so what? He got a whopping 1 extra delegate out of that! What you aren't getting is that Romney doesn't need to win anything in order to be the nominee. So long as no one of his opponents consistently takes first place he can become the nominee simply by having accumulated the most delegates.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Romney's guaranteed to win. But he has the best odds of the people running, at this point. Don't underestimate the fact that he's the one candidate who isn't actively disliked by a sizable minority of Republicans. That counts for a lot, especially if (as seems increasingly likely) nobody gets a majority of delegates.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Don't underestimate the fact that he's the one candidate who isn't actively disliked by a sizable minority of Republicans.

That's news to me.

EnigmatiCore said...

Is your name Hugh Hewitt in real life?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

As a New Hampshire resident ( I'm the one who voted for Thompson ) all I can say is thank God it's over. Now will the canidates and the media please go bother some other state.

Simon said...

Oh thank God - sanity prevails. Clinton leading Obama. Our long national lobotomy is over.

EnigmatiCore said...

If Hillary does end up winning this, it speaks extremely well of the get-out-the-vote organization she has at her beck-and-call.

That matters much more in a primary than a caucus.

And matters more in a general election.

And being able to organize what is really important is what is important in a politician, and a leader, isn't it?

Isn't that supposed to be what Romney was good at, btw?

Middle Class Guy said...

Courtney said:
People need to give women more credit than that.


We do give women more credit than that. Just not that woman.

madawaskan said...

Well who are these talking heads writing the obits?

First they look dead wrong about Hillary-and that balloon floated that She was going to quit?

Now I forgot Michigan went before Florida but Romney should hang on for that -hell his father was a three term governor there. Three terms-that is extremely rare.

South Carolina-Huckster country. Thompson says it's his firewall...I dunno. McCain could have some of the military vote there.

Nevada-that happens before Florida and Giuliani is leading by a large percent. We do have some Mormons though-for some reason McCain doesn't do well and in old polls for California never did well.

Speaking of which Hillary owns California. Old data but her lead was huge and the Clintons have always done well in California-I can't remember the reasoning but once explained to me by some ground gamers there it made sense.

I think it has to do with how economically prosperous relative to the rest of the country California is.

Speaking of Rudy Giuliani and Hillary they both own New York respectively.

So watch who is telling you about the demise of Rudy.

It's Buchanan that little freak and Bill Kristol always a McCain fan.

Look there is no reason or incentive to drop out of the race when the delegates will als be proportionally devied out on the republican side, and no longer a winner take all proposition.

Another thing this Hillary comeback story is going to suck the wind out of the airwaves just as her crying game did.

No matter how you felt about that-bad publicity is better than no publicity.

Verso said...

Romney doesn't need to win anything in order to be the nominee

You make a good point, and I think your expectations for Romney make sense. He seems like he might still be the most viable candidate. This is the craziest primary season I've ever seen.

Middle Class Guy said...

John Edwards, God blacken his soul, made the most honest statement so far; 48 states left. He is right and Hillary and Obama are going to be in for the fight of their life.

mythusmage said...

What New Hampshirites did tonight was show that they will do anything to prove they are not Iowans.

Middle Class Guy said...

Oh Christ, will someone jsut super glue Edwards mouth shut. I want to gag.

Middle Class Guy said...

Upchuck, upchuck, upchuck. Edwards is a tool.

Lamar63 said...

Things are getting interesting. Evem if Obama pulls out a win, Clinton can claim she is the Come Back Kid II.

Then what? How negative can she go against Obama between now and 2/5? I think a lot of people wish Obama well and will not take kindly to him being attacked.

How badly split will the Democratic party be.

goesh said...

I'm still waiting for the faithful to start the rally cry of, "Barack Hussein Obama, Commander In Chief of the American Armed Forces!" You have to admit, It does have a nice ring to it.

EnigmatiCore said...

Yes, I will join the chorus-- of the top-tier candidates, the one LEAST likely to ever get me to cast a vote for him, and most likely to get me to mock insidiously anyone that does, is John Edwards. What a lightweight phony.

Simon said...

Gahrie - sorry, I agree with Jack.

Middle Class Guy said...

I'm surprised he didn't channel some dead person.

George said...

Steadfast, tough, and ugly, Fred Thompson proceeds with stately dignity towards South Carolina.

Ever the gentleman, the wise tortoise lets others bask in the momentary flicker of vain publicity.

Courtney said...

MiddleClassGuy-Don't get me wrong-I'm no fan of Hilary. I just think women vote with their brains, not their hearts. The NH women who voted for her presumably did so because they believe she's the best candidate. I don't see any of the commentators suggesting that McCain won tonight because everyone felt bad for him.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Romney doesn't need to win anything in order to be the nominee

True. I can see his general election campaign now: Mitt Romney: Everyone's Second Choice. That would like prove true in November as well.

madawaskan said...

AP just called it for Hillary.

JackDRipper said...

A Althouse - AND: Uuuuggghhhh.... I'm reeling in shock! Hillary overcame The God Obama? Noooooooo!

Double A, Obama is not God. He's God's Second Born Son!

reader_iam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lamar63 said...

Why do we pay any attention to the polls?

rcocean said...

First, NH's Republican Primary was full of RINOs and Independents. McCain got 49% in 2000, so his 37% is no surprise. Secondly, conservatives and Republicans outside of the NE, HATE McCain (for good reason). McCain, despite the MSM constant cheerleading, and Chris Matthews' Mancrush, will NOT get nomination.

Let me repeat THEY HATE MCCAINS GUTS. Sorry, to shout but the McCainiacs in DC/NY and on TV never understand this. He will never be nominated. Period.

reader_iam said...

The media weren't prepared for the drawn-out nature of the Dem N.H. primary. It's telling how early they decided to go on the air. And it's telling with who how less the screen has been crowded--and with whom and without--even and most particularly with regard to MSNBC, which, overall did the best job tonight (partly due to default, based on CNN and Fox weirdnesses, alluded to earlier).

Well, that's my primary gut reaction, nuance aside.

***

Eh, those broadcast people were ALWAYS the earliest go to home. LOLOLOLOLOL. Not for THEM live "replates" into the later wee hours. ('Course, actual print doesn't seem to do that sort of thing, either, anymore, but they did.) Excuse me, please, for a bit of private deja vu and amusement. I would be the first to say that, these days, this is entirely beside the point. Irrelevant. And even a non sequitur.

The thing about the 'net is that you get, to the degree you will personally permit it, to go there simply because you can, so to speak--to indulge, regardless, because--who's to stop you?.

***

Alan said...

Stunning upset. Clinton beats all the odds. She again is the one to beat.

If Obama manages to win the nomination, I'll vote for him. I won't vote for Clinton.

madawaskan said...

FOX won't call it, and Michael Barone said earlier in the night that they saw a weird return in one precinct where almost all of the votes went to one candidate so they tossed it out as an anomoly.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Strange, the first time in 80 years that no incumbent President or Vice President is running, both parties have a half-dozen serious and semi-serious candidates, millions (if not tens of millions) have been poured into this tiny state, genuine retail politics (almost no one else in America has an opportunity to corner a candidate in a diner or coffee meeting like those in New Hampshire) and when all is said and done, it looks like just fewer than half of the voters there bothered to show up at the polls.

madawaskan said...

Well let's face it McCain just doesn't have the bucks.

What he banked on was getting some Mo out of this-but I think the Hillary Come Back story might ironically rob him of some of that.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Hanover (Dartmouth) is finally reporting. 2-1 for Obama there so far. Let's see if that makes any dent. I doubt its enough now.

Revenant said...

"Don't underestimate the fact that he's the one candidate who isn't actively disliked by a sizable minority of Republicans."

That's news to me.

Do you disagree that he isn't actively disliked, or disagree that he's the only one who isn't?

The religious right's problems with Giuliani are well-known, as are McCain's problems with the Republican base. Huckabee appeals to the religious right... and nobody else, since he's basically a Democrat on any subject not covered by Leviticus. But Romney, so far as I know, hasn't especially offended anyone. Oh, sure, there's skepticism about him, especially given his "conversion" from liberal to conservative views on a number of topics, but to the best of my knowledge there is no We Hate Mitt club in the Republican Party.

Meade said...

"Did people just get disgusted with the hype?"

Nope. Hillary just pulled in the crybaby vote.

MISS said...

"If Obama manages to win the nomination, I'll vote for him. I won't vote for Clinton."

Just curious Alan, If Hillary does get the nod, does this mean you will not vote at all or will vote for the repub regardless of who their candidate is?

madawaskan said...

Revenant-

I swear Huckabee is running as the white male Democrat candidate.

He's just going about it in a 'round about way.

That's how he rolls.

Tituswow said...

The media and the polls were obviously trash. I am actually shocked after hearing of Hilary's demise and Obama's 10 point lead.

This is really a repuditation of all of the media talking heads who said Hilary was done and Obama was God.

Wow, what a surprise.

reader_iam said...

Ah, so Obama has decided to go explicitly and specifically left, and right out of the gate!

reader_iam said...

Fascinating.

Middle Class Guy said...

Obama made a big mistake. He should have waited until the last vote was counted before he conceded, even if it took until tomorrow morning. He just gave Hillary a fence post to crow on.

AJ Lynch said...

Here is what I see based on Iowa / New Hampshire:

Obama can win states that are liberal like Iowa. These include NJ,WI,MN,IL,MD, MA, MI, CA, OR and WA.

Hillary can win states that are more moderate like New Hampshire. These include PA, OH, VA, FL, MO, TX, and the other western states.

And New York could be up for grabs.

If I am right, the race will be back and forth with Hilary eking out Obama (her VP & running mate).

Call it my Iowa/ New Hampshire meter.

Middle Class Guy said...

Three percent is not a mandate! It is as close to a tie as you can get.

Tituswow said...

New Hampshire has officially gone blue. 90,000 more votes for the democrats than the republican.

Middle Class Guy said...

Back to the Food Network. Good Eats beats this out everytime.

madawaskan said...

What the hell?

Obama is not on the ballot in Michigan?

Michigan Live

SteveR said...

We are treating Iowa and NH like it was in the past and the compressed schedule makes predictions at this point folly.

I still expect it to be Rudy vs Hillary despite the stellar record of the MSM.

madawaskan said...

But come Jan. 15, the name Obama will appear nowhere on Michigan's Democratic primary ballot. A squabble between state and national party officials over the primary date led Obama and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards to withdraw their names from the ballot.

New York Sen. Hillary Clinton remains.

Eli Blake said...

Note that the GOP turnout today was actually less than it was in 2000. Democratic turnout this year was almost double what it was then.

My last choice as a Democrat is Clinton, but I will admit that the Clintons do know how to win.

I also don't think that in the overall context of things you can say that Obama is a loser, he has clearly made it a race between him and her.

Winners: McCain, Clinton (obviously). Huckabee (since nobody expected him to get third in a state with few evangelicals and he beat Giuliani for the spot.)

Losers: Richardson, Edwards, Romney (obviously). Paul ('libertarian' New Hampshire was his best chance to surprise people, and he finished fifth.) Giuliani (his whole strategy has been to beat more socially conservative candidates later on by pushing leadership, the war on terror and experience. He won't be able to play that hand vs. McCain, so Rudy is now reduced to hoping Romney slows down McCain in Michigan.)

reader_iam said...

I'm not clear why Obama was expected to be a blow-out in N.H., in particular, outside of recent bubbling (and bubblings up). Or why it would be stunning if he didn't upset.

Whatever.

I think the Republican side was more interesting tonight, with the possible exception of the sharp turn of Obama's latest speech (only due to timing and the possible calculations underpinning thereof [and again, to beat a dead horse, the timing). It was more abbreviated, to be sure, and lacking in delicious drawn-out suspense as compared to the Dem side; but still.

And now ... on we go.

(Oh, and definitely count me that I do think it's WAY too early for the nominations to be decided. That they're not is a good thing.)

Eli Blake said...

madawaskan:

The DNC also stripped Michigan of all their delegates. So the only contest there is McCain vs. Romney (the rest of the Republicans probably won't compete much there). If McCain wins, it's strike three for Romney and he can call it quits. If Romney wins then McCain's resurgence is short-lived.

Tituswow said...

Hilary Clinton is one tough cookie.

reader_iam said...

Meanwhile, of course Clinton used the word "comeback"! I think that was both she and everyone listening, literally there and generally though, were anticipating and expecting her to say, in the event.

As I said: now, on we go.

***

OT, I'm having problems posting, fyi. Is it just me? This time I'm going to copy what I just wrote, so I don't get caught yet again. (Because every version is going to get less spontaneous and weaker, as I lose interest.) A blogger thing generally, or just here? Or just my log-in?

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Revenant, as the public comment by Huckabee about Romney & Mormon theology showed, there is deep suspicion of Mormonism among born-again Christians. It is, and has been for decades, a quiet word-of-mouth campaign. Although there are a couple of feature-length films floating around out there that have been played in more than one or two church halls more than once over the years. The first time I heard mention of this was in the mid-80's, it was definitely a hot topic in rural Oregon in the '90's (Oregon is about 2/3 rural population BTW). It is a huge problem for him because a lot of those people are among the most dedicated of party activists. (True, McCain isn't popular with them either.)

Donald Douglas said...

I'm watching the Hill's speech on CNN right now (I channel surfed a bit too, after my own Dobbsy regurgitation).

I'm so stoked for McCain though - I've been blogging him for a year, in the down times even.

It feels like it's Christmas in January!

Revenant said...

Eli,

If McCain wins, it's strike three for Romney and he can call it quits.

The only reason for any of the candidates to "call it quits" is if they run out of money and can't raise more. Even then there's no reason to officially drop out of the race. After all, they may still accumulate enough delegates to nab a VP spot, if the leader hasn't got a majority of the delegates.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

I'm not having the same problem, Reader. Personally, I think it is too bad that she did use the word "comeback." Let others use it, sure, but try and avoid looking like you are running for Bill Clinton's third term (which she is).

Verso said...

Because every version is going to get less spontaneous and weaker, as I lose interest.

Good description of what happens when you have to rewrite, and re-rewrite, posts.

To answer your question, I haven't been having any problems posting tonight, though I haven't posted on this blog for an hour or two.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Romney, being a centimillionaire, has no reason to drop out. He's been basically self-funding for some time now.

Revenant said...

Randy, while there's certainly a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry on the religious right, it doesn't seem to me that it has translated into significant anti-Romney bigotry.

Middle Class Guy said...

Are the media finally going to put Hillary through the same scrutiny as the other candidates? Are they going to finally investigate, verify, and force her to document her claims of thirty five years of public service, leadership, and experience?

Or are they going to continue to be the cowards that they are and give her the free play, while all the other candidates- on both sides- are put under their microscope?

As far as this campaign goes, the media has abidicated any responsibility, ethics or standards that they claim to have. Fox included.

Simon said...

"AND: Did people just get disgusted with the hype?"

They woke up.

rcocean said...

McCain despite his victory tonight is dead man walking.

He had no chance, so enjoy your moment McCainiacs.

JackDRipper said...

Eli Blake said...Winners: McCain, Clinton (obviously). Huckabee (since nobody expected him to get third in a state with few evangelicals and he beat Giuliani for the spot.)

Losers: Richardson, Edwards, Romney (obviously).


Guy, are you bothering to pay any attention to what is happening?

McCain - 6 delegates.

Romney - 3 delegates.

Huckabee - 0 delegates.

How is Romney a loser and Huckabee a winner?

It's all about the delegates. Romney will continue to raise money from the Republican fat cats and he's got a 1/4 billion dollar personal fortune.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#NH

Revenant said...

McCain despite his victory tonight is dead man walking.

It should also be noted that he did much worse this year than he did in 2000, despite the opposition in NH being (in my opinion at least) stronger in 2000 than it is this year.

Middle Class Guy said...

I am listening to Lanny Davis- who would name their kid Lanny?

He demands that others put their records out there. Where is Hillary's record. He does not give any proof that Hillary has done anything except talk. She is good at that. Where is the proof? What has she changed, except Chelsea's diapers?

Hillary Clinton and her people are full of hubris and dishonesty. She should have to prove her record, just like the rest of the candidates.

Middle Class Guy said...

To all you lawyers out there:

If the Democrats win, do you have any advice how a Middle Class person can shelter most of their income agaisnt the ravages of the massive tax hike we will experience?

Bill raised taxes on us, Hillary will too. It is worth looking into. It would be nice not to avoid as much as possible.

rcocean said...

I know nothing about the Northeast.

Hasn't New Hampshire turned into a Boston suburb? If so, that would explain McCain's victory and even Hillary's. I don't think White Bread Boston *really* likes the black man.

Revenant said...

What has she changed, except Chelsea's diapers?

She didn't have a nanny for that? Some yuppie SHE turned out to be.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

How is Romney a loser

Oh, gee. I don't know. Let me think.... Could it be because he, uh, lost? Hmmm. Maybe. Spent millions upon millions there and Iowa and still came up short. Of course, he can continue spending millions and millions and outspend everyone. Nevada (8%), like Wyoming (10%) before it, ranks behind only Idaho (27%) and Utah (72%) in its percentage of population identified as Mormon, which should help. South Carlina probably prove a decent indicator of just how willing Christian fundamentalists are to pull a lever for a Mormon.

former law student said...

Who is GOP candidate Vermin Supreme, and why is this the first time I've heard of him?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2008/by_state/NH_Page_0108.html?SITE=NHCONELN&SECTION=POLITICS

Verso said...

Middle Class Guy,
Do you know why you hate Hillary so much? Or is it a mystery to you, something you just live with?

Verso said...

Middle Class Guy inquires: do you have any advice how a Middle Class person can shelter most of their income agaisnt the ravages of the massive tax hike we will experience

Good question. The massive corporations are allowed to incorporate off shore to avoid taxes. Have the Republicans passed any laws to allow regular folks to do the same?

MCG: You will blame the Republicans for their failure to give you the ability to offshore your income, won't you?

Middle Class Guy said...

Verso,
I do not hate Hillary. I do not like what she stands for or the fact that we know nothing about her, except what she tells us. Only Liberals hate people. I hate what Liberals do.

I just want her to be subjected to the same scrutiny as others. What has she done, except marry Bill. There is no record of her doing anything earth shaking. She is secretive and dishonest. She is the untouchable affirmative action candidate.

Shed has had a free play.

Middle Class Guy said...

Verso,
I will blame the Democrats for raising my taxes, like Bill Clinton did. He raised taxes on every one, not the wealthy. Hillary will do the same. My money is mine. If I want to waste it, let me. Better than the government wasting it.

tightspotkilo said...

The massive corporations are allowed to incorporate off shore to avoid taxes.

What "massive corporations" are you referring to, and where exactly is it that they "incorporate off shore"? Name some corporations and name some places offshore where they've incorporated to avoid taxes.

Besides exploding that bit of drivel, some Econ 201 would also be helpful here. Corporations never pay taxes. In fact, it's practically a physical impossibility for them to do so. Taxes become just another cost of doing business and get passed along to the consumer as such in the price of the product sold. What leftards like you don't seem to grasp is that when they go off the rails about needing to raise taxes on the big corporations because they need to pay more is what they are really saying is "I'm not paying enough for the things I buy and I want prices on them raised." Because that's all that ends up happening.

Middle Class Guy said...

Verso,
I have a challenge for you. Give me one good, solid, logical, and intelligent reason to like Hillary Clinton.

I like Barak Obama, even though I would not vote for him. I could have tolerated Biden. But, just give me one reason to even not criticize her. Please, I am curious as to what she has done.

Verso said...

Middle Class Guy,
Is it your position that taxation is theft? Do you believe you should not have to pay taxes?

Don't taxes pay for your pension? Didn't it pay for your salary for your entire working life?

That money that you were paid was "theirs," the people who it was taxed from. How do you feel living off the labor of other people?

I mean, I'm just asking. I personally am glad you were paid, and hope you were paid well. You did important work and you deserved it. That's why we pay taxes. But I don't go around saying stuff like "my money is mine" as if I believe I can live in a civil society and not have to pay to maintain that society.

PatCA said...

Hillary did more than peel off the sympathy vote. She beat Obama by about 3 percentage points.

Good for her--it's inspiring that the American people confounded the entire punditocracy. Her speech was less robotic than usual, and Obama actually stated some of his beliefs in his speech, all of which I disagreed with profoundly, most of which will appeal to the young idealists who believe in leftist victimology that he hopes to attract.

Game on!

Tituswow said...

fyi boston is not white bread. it is 30% african american and 20% latino. So to call it whitebread is inaccurate.

Although it has a large italian and irish population and that combination is a hot hog combo.

Verso said...

Middle Class Guy,
I really don't want to give you a reason about Hillary, simply because I don't want to debate that. However, since you asked, and since I don't want to appear to be dodging, I'll give you one: She won't appoint radical right wing extremists to the Supreme Court, like any Republican will.

Meanwhile, I have another question for you: Do you think Hillary will raise more taxes than Obama or Biden would?

Finally, I would like to know how you feel about Republicans allowing corportations to dodge their tax responsibilities by off shoring, but they don't make that option available to the rank and file American citizen? The republicans could have engineered a way to allow you to dodge your taxes the same way corporations do. So how about a little equal opportunity outrage directed against the Republicans for strapping you with taxes?

Meade said...

"McCain despite his victory tonight is dead man walking."

Dead man walking through Michigan with a bounce in his step. He won Michigan in 2000 right? I wonder how Michiganders feel about FlexFuel. (SOMEone has to win the war against OPEC.)

If Romney doesn't win Michigan what is he then? Rich man on a Greyhound bus back to Massachusetts ?

Tituswow said...

Also, Mass voted for a black governor overwhelmingly in 2006.

Tituswow said...

Also, Mass voted for a black governor overwhelmingly in 2006.

jeff said...

"That money that you were paid was "theirs," the people who it was taxed from. How do you feel living off the labor of other people?

I mean, I'm just asking. I personally am glad you were paid, and hope you were paid well. You did important work and you deserved it. That's why we pay taxes. But I don't go around saying stuff like "my money is mine" as if I believe I can live in a civil society and not have to pay to maintain that society."


Uh...what? And where did he say he shouldn't pay taxes? At what level of taxes would you abandon your argument? There will always be something government wants to buy and can not because we selfishly think the money we earn is ours to spend as we please.

jeff said...

"She won't appoint radical right wing extremists to the Supreme Court, like any Republican will. "

Wow. Got a name of a radical right wing extremist that was appointed to the supreme court?

somefeller said...

"Only Liberals hate people."

Nah, nothing hateful or unhinged about that analysis. What a glorious day. First, I re-activate my blogger account, then, Hillary wins, thus causing conniption fits amongst the permanently resentful among us. Awesome.

M. Simon said...

Verso,

The way to keep corps on shore is to lower their taxes. You know. Encourage businesses to come to America, not drive them out.

An incentive plan.

Tituswow said...

I love Cindy Mccain. She is fabulous. Thin, great hair, fabulous clothes, tits you could bounce quarters off of. I am totally voting for Mccain. I love her. She is fabulous.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Well said, Meade. He very well may be a dead man walking and the last man standing. *LOL* As for Romney and Michigan, he needs a convincing win, and he can probably manage it. That said, I imagine the number of people who remember his father as anything but a historical footnote are a rather small percentage of Michigan's current electorate. New Hampshire, OTOH, has heard all about Romney for almost two decades. Couldn't help hearing as the Massachusetts media market overlaps a good part of the state. And all he managed against a washed-up, very aged maverick Republican from Arizona was a second place finish?

reader_iam said...

My immediate question was--do Verso and Middle Class Guy know each other personally, such that Verso knows that Middle Class spent a lifetime as a government employee, which positions are, by definition, funded with taxes and paid for by taxpayers.

Otherwise, while my intent is not to offend anyone, I frankly do not understand 3/4 of the comment of 11:15.

Help?

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

The way to keep corps on shore is to lower their taxes. You know. Encourage businesses to come to America, not drive them out.

True, but when was the last time we raised taxes on corporations and how does our overall tax rate compare to other industrialized nations?

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Help?

If you get an answer let me know (provided it is worth reading). Not saying these two, but some of the comments here tonight do seem like they were regurgitations of talking points from this or that campaign HQ.

Middle Class Guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

If we can't elect a pygmy, how about a Oompa-Loompa?

JackDRipper said...

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...How is Romney a loser

Oh, gee. I don't know. Let me think.... Could it be because he, uh, lost? Hmmm. Maybe.


Uhm, ah, dah...aahh, wah......This isn't the general election, there is no all or nothing electoral college involved. It's about winning the delegates and he's doing that. Slow and steady. But better than his competitors.

Nevada (8%), like Wyoming (10%) before it, ranks behind only Idaho (27%) and Utah (72%) in its percentage of population identified as Mormon, which should help.

He's not running as the Mormon candidate.

South Carlina probably prove a decent indicator of just how willing Christian fundamentalists are to pull a lever for a Mormon.

He just needs to keep getting the delegates. He's not going to quit after South Carolina or Michigan regardless.

Thompson and Guiliani are on the way out. They wont get the money or the delegates. Huckabee is not going to be acceptable to the more realistic Republicans who want to win in the general election and McCain is a hack politician loved by the liberal media and hated by the Republicans who is still living off being unable to get out of the way of a missile in 'Nam.

Why are people underestimating Romney? Is it anti-Mormon bigotry or liberal fear that ultimately he is the best candidate to beat Obama or Hilary?

Middle Class Guy said...

Verso,
I do not believe I should not pay taxes. I do believe that my money is mine. I do believe that there is always a reason to lower or eliminate certain taxes and never a reason to raise taxes. President Clinton lied to us. When he supposedly raised taxes on the rich, my paycheck went down- the sob raised the with holding rate. I had to scramble to make up the sort fall.

I believe that government should not waste the money we send them. I believe we should have a fair and equal tax rate- one rate for all. Fifteen percent would be the maximum for all- wage earners and corporations. From my personal experience in the military and government, we should cut government by at least one third. This is my estimate of government waste.

My money is mine. I worked for it, I earned it. The government did not do anything to earn it. They only finance failure, like the war on poverty. Now, I am going to really piss you off. I believe that it is unconstitutional that the poor do not pay taxes.

Middle Class Guy said...

"...how does our overall tax rate compare to other industrialized nations?"


We have the highest corporate taxes in the Western World.

Trooper York said...

I would settle for a Munchkin, but they are all really old now. Sort of like Admiral Stock...I mean McCain.

Middle Class Guy said...

Verso,
BTW, I paid into my pension, every pay day for almost thirty years. It is a split between me and the city. They do not fully fund the pension in violation of the law, but this is Chicago, the only place as corrupt as Arkansas.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

*LOL* Trooper York! Now stop that! Made me spew water all over the monitor and fried it, I fear. (Let me know where to send the bill for the new one.)

Trooper York said...

It is a well know fact that the Munchkins refused to pay taxes. When FDR forced them to pay social security they were really pissed. Since little people often die young, they felt they were getting the short end of the stick. So to speak.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

We have the highest corporate taxes in the Western World.

Documentation, please. Higher than Sweden? Higher than Germany? Higher than the UK? Higher than Japan? Higher than Canada? Higher than France?

Middle Class Guy said...

Somefeller said:
...then, Hillary wins, thus causing conniption fits amongst the permanently resentful among us. Awesome.

No resentment. Just looking for Hillary to tell the truth; like what has she accomplished in thirty five years besides passing the bar and marrying Bill?

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

BTW, nothing anyone says about Hillary Clinton, logical or not, will make one whit of difference to you. Which is why almost no one has even bothered trying.

madawaskan said...

Eli-

Jeez I didn't know the Dems stripped the delegates, on top of that I think the Republicans halved the Michigan delegates.
This is really making the early primaries stranger.

The calculus at the convention could get interesting like a train wreck.

Crap-did the Republicans keep super delegates or is it just the Dems that do super delegates?

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Munchkins are an endangered species, I agree, trooper. Do you think we are taxing or over-withheld them out of existence? (There is a difference between the two, as I am sure you will appreciate). I vote for over-withholding as they couldn't stretch far enough to get their refund, which the evil IRS was holding too high off the gorund to reach.

Trooper York said...

The little people who really get the wrong end of the stick are of course the black Oompa-Loompas who prefer to be called by the name
Oompa-Loumia's.

Alan said...

MISS,

"Just curious Alan, If Hillary does get the nod, does this mean you will not vote at all or will vote for the repub regardless of who their candidate is?"

If I vote for the GOP candidate he'll have to be as polarizing as Hillary and as socially liberal. That rules out all but Rudy. Otherwise I'll probably throw my vote away on a third party.

Middle Class Guy said...

I watched Hillary's speech. I want to throw up. This candidate is as real as mystery meat. This candidate is as phony as a three dollar bill.

She is talking about invisible people? Delusions. She has delusions. I wonder what she thinks of UFOs?

The old saying is true; you can fool some of the people some of the time.

Trooper York said...

The last mayor of Munchkinland was of course Ray Nagin who was a proud Oompa-Loumia. He told CNN that no matter how many old munckin's lingered on in Munckinland despite the migration to the Valley due to Munckin flight, the Oompa-Loumia's would always make it a "chocolate city."

halojones-fan said...

I'm amused by the idea of a Zombie Hillary Clinton.

ZPS said...

I guess everyone that voted for Hillary! in NH (and IA for that matter) are just mindless idiots and all of YOU on here who know the REAL Hillary are the smart ones.

Arrogant, no?

(P.S. I still will NEVER vote for her...unless it's her against Huckabee or Romney.)

Trooper York said...

The last great hope of the little people for a candidate who could be President was Madeline Albright who didn’t realize that her grandparents were Oompa-Loompa’s. She had the support of people of small stature, but lost it when she was photographed without shoes and it was discovered that she was actually a hobbit.

Ben said...

I'm calling a shotgun start next time for the primaries. The first few primaries are only good at showing who the top 3-4 guys are now anyhow.

Interestingly enough, it looks like on the NH exit poll data on CNN, you either like Romney and Giuliani or Huckabee and McCain. Odd pairings, but it kinda makes sense.

And that munchkin stuff is classic.

Middle Class Guy said...

What about Big Bird, Bert and Ernie, the Grouch, the Cookie Monster, and Elmo? Have they been disenfranchised?

If they had the vote who would they have voted for?

I know the answer. He is dead, but I live in Chicago, so anything can happen. Mr. Rogers for President!!!!!

Trooper York said...

Little people are often rumored to be exceptionally lusty and there rumors of insane Munchkin orgies on the set of the Wizard of Oz. By nature, Munckins were passionate and sexually insatiable people. That is why they have always considered Bill Clinton the first Munckin President.

Middle Class Guy said...

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...
We have the highest corporate taxes in the Western World.

Documentation, please. Higher than Sweden? Higher than Germany? Higher than the UK? Higher than Japan? Higher than Canada? Higher than France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Our corporate tax rate is 39.9%. The world average is approximately 27%. We are the highest.

Middle Class Guy said...

Years ago, in Chicago, there was a tavern called the Midget Bar. It was set up for little people. Little people from all over came there. They had a few stools and seats for the big people. The place was owned and operated by one of the Munchkins from the Wizard of Oz.

Middle Class Guy said...

Hillary found her voice tonight. Give me a break. This candidate is a stereotypical politician. We can tell when she is lying because her lips are moving.

Revenant said...

The massive corporations are allowed to incorporate off shore to avoid taxes. Have the Republicans passed any laws to allow regular folks to do the same?

They don't have to. Americans have always had the ability to give up their citizenship. After doing so they, like corporations, are only held accountable for their earnings within the United States.

Revenant said...

Personally I don't see what the rationale is behind taxing corporations at all.

After all, we tax the salaries and dividends they pay, the profits on sales of their stock, and the benefits they provide to employees. In other words, whenever wealth or benefits get transferred from a corporation to its owners or employees -- we tax it.

Mortimer Brezny said...

What a disappointment for Obama-lovers. Can it be that Hillary and her crying turned things around?

Yes. And independents went to McCain instead of Obama. One thing I find interesting is Hillary can claim all the Steinemesque gender-card playing was successful. Does that mean we'll see more "Women before Blacks, Vote a Woman!" talk?

Also, 3% is not really a comeback. And I doubt that will be the news story. But who knows.

Mortimer Brezny said...

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/how_wrong_were_the_polls.php

I wonder who the extra Hillary voters were.

Revenant said...

I guess everyone that voted for Hillary! in NH (and IA for that matter) are just mindless idiots and all of YOU on here who know the REAL Hillary are the smart ones.

That's an interesting question. Let me pose a question of my own in return: were all the people who voted for Bush in '04 -- i.e., a majority of voters -- mindless idiots, and were people like you the ones who knew the REAL George Bush?

A second question comes to mind as well: do you realize that Clinton and Obama both won the same number of delegates in New Hampshire, and that Clinton is still losing the race to Obama at this point?

Theo Boehm said...

Uuuuggghhhh.... I'm reeling in shock! Hillary overcame The God Obama? Noooooooo!

Well, someone on these threads mentioned Hillary as Earth Mother.

And this is as close as I got with that concept, except I view her here as a combination of Freyja and the Queen of the Night—but a good Queen of the Night: the Eternal Feminine surveying her moonlit realm.

I did it because it's a striking picture, sadly not because it has too much to do with Hillary.  All those Earth Mother/Goddess images are powerful and strike the depths of our collective unconscious.  My own favorite is the Norse Freyja, with Athena a close second.

Pagan Goddesses share deeply human qualities.  But the quality of Hillary's humanity is always strained.  Protests and tears of vexation didn't seem convincing, but perhaps they worked well enough in the end.  Or was it the triumph of Mrs. Clinton's will, tears be damned?

Did Pallas Hillary overcome Poseidon Obama?

Or was it simply the Ghost of Nixon?

herbp01 said...

I think the independents who were going to vote for Obama thought he had it in the bag, so they decided to vote for Mcain and have now thrown the whole race into chaos.

DaveW said...

AND: Uuuuggghhhh.... I'm reeling in shock! Hillary overcame The God Obama? Noooooooo!

I am very disappointed (and also wrong, as I had predicted an Obama sweep right through SC).

Frankly, if he were to win the Dem nomination and Huckabee won the Pub, I had decided I was going to vote for him.

Perhaps the tears ploy worked. Or maybe as mentioned upthread independents though Obama didn't need their vote decided to go vote for McCain.

Whatever the case, Hillary is now going to be touted as the Dem front-runner again.

tjl said...

"a combination of Freyja and the Queen of the Night"

The perfect model for Hillary is Fricka in Wagner's Ring cycle -- the termagant goddess who uses her husband's marital lapses as a tool to take control of the destiny of the world.

Der Hahn said...

I think herb just above nailed it, though it might be they prefered to vote for a maverick conservative rather than a squishy liberal.

Guiliani and Thompson lost much bigger than Romney by running behind Huckabee.

NH was always assumed to be friendly to McCain so I can't say that it's a major blow to Romney the way Iowa was. While it was a big win for Huck, it netted him 0 delegates. They won't be selected until the IA Republican state convention, and there's still a couple of levels to go where Huckabee people can be cut out of the process.

Virtually all the Republican candidates are unpalatable to portions of the party in some way (McCain - old/maverick, Guilianai - not social conservative, Huckabee - not fiscal conservative, Thompson - old/no fire, Romney - questionably conservative). In positive terms, it means that each has a way of appealing to independts in the general election. I don't think anyone would be *so* unpalatable as to cause major losses among Republican voters. People will vent about staying home but I doubt that most of that talk is serious.

Balfegor said...

AND: Uuuuggghhhh.... I'm reeling in shock! Hillary overcame The God Obama? Noooooooo!

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

Theo Boehm said...

tlj:  That is very apt.  If we want to get mythological and perhaps operatic, Fricka is the best comparison.

Tilade said...

I think this may summerize it the best....

HOWARD DEAN WIYGN