July 26, 2007

"Do we need to manage the current mess or try and transform it?"

"The former is a rationale for the Clinton candidacy; the latter is the rationale for Obama's." Why conservatives are coming to accept the idea of Hillary as President.

25 comments:

Roger said...

The fact that anyone suggests a mess (however defined) can be transformed as not learned a basic lesson of American politics: Absent an event like 9/11, the great depression, or Pearl Harbor, american politics are incremental. I trust Ms Clinton learned that lesson during the abortive health care reform exercise--and I think she has.

Re pragmatism: I would rather have a pragmatic president than an idealist or transformational president. A pragmatist (Mr. Clinton) ended up signing off on welfare reform.

To the substance of the article: I think that may be a good way to characterize choices. Again, I see Ms. Clinton as more Hawkish in national security affairs, the Mr. Obama, and while I dont agree with all of her domestic policies, assuming she is pragmatic, then I could accept her.

And the newly discovered cleavage doesnt hurt her case either. :)

Sloanasaurus said...

I think compared to Obama, Clinton is better. But, compared to Giuliani, Clinton is a tax and spend liberal.

However, it is dangerous to project onto a candidate a belief that the candidate is something other than what they say they are. Thus, its dangrous to rationalize that Clinton is really "lying" about things to get the nomination, or "stretching" the truth to appease certain elements of her party. If she says she wants national health care. We should take her at her word. If she says she wants to get out of Iraq now, we should take her at her word. If she says she wants to impose lots of regulations to reduce CO2 we should believe that too.

I hate to bring up Hitler, but the classic mistake with Hitler was for the moderates in Germany to support him and at the same time rationalize away the anti-semitic stuff. They assumed that Hitler was jsut being a politician about it and really had no intention of carrying out Mein Kampf.

Joseph Hovsep said...

I agree with Sullivan's point about conservatives warming up to Hillary Clinton. Its been a clear goal of the Clinton camp and its been well calculated and executed. I think conservatives who follow politics closely have been overestimating the extent to which typical Americans with a conservative bent will reject Hillary Clinton on account of her 1990s liberal image.

I also agree with Roger re transformational presidents. George W. Bush was not elected for his transformational potential, but he has become a transformational president as a result of events which were essentially beyond his control. I think a "transformational" campaign platform is probably not going to have a strong appeal to a stable, if weary, voting population in the absence of new and dramatic developments.

davidc. said...

I might add a thought from a Southern perspective. I have felt that suicide would be preferable to her as president but then picked up on a blog from another site that seems a good way to look at the inevitable. Many Southerners feel the nation is lost. We have tried to effect change since the 70's with a return to smaller, less expensive and less active government. Yet this has obviously not been the case and their does not seem to be a remedy. So I know that many are yearning for seperation. If Hillary is elected this could be the catalyst, much like Lincoln in 1860. I can certainly now understand the motives of my fore fathers in their desire for secession.

Zeb Quinn said...

Why conservatives are coming to accept the idea of Hillary as President

Hillary Headquarters is busy getting stuff out. This one is Hillary's triangulation strategy, 2008 style.

But let's be real. Conservatives ARE NOT going to be voting for Hillary. They remember her and who she is.

Roger said...
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Roger said...

I should be quite clear, I guess: Ms. Clinton is my choice among the democrats to be in the general election, but Rudy is my choice as president. If he fails to get the nomination then I will have to reconsider. Ms. Clinton is simply the best of a scary lot.

An Edjamikated Redneck said...

Are Conservatives warming to Hillary as President, or as the Democratic candidate?

Most Conservatives would, I believe, like to see Hillary as the Dems standard bearer, because they cannot believe anyone would vote for her. I seriously doubt any conservative can see her as President, even given the national dissatisfaction with Bush and the Republicans.

There may be a lot of support for her now, but how many will actually pull the lever for her in a secret ballot?

SteveR said...

I agree that conservatives will not vote for Hillary. But if she is elected, and that's a good possibility, I'd like to at least feel better than davidc or feel the need to go to Canada like all those folks from Hollywood did in 2004. (they did go, right?)

I don't like her socialized ideals but I see enough pragmatism to give me hope she would not be so bad (except for my pocketbook). And hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things...

Mortimer Brezny said...

I trust Ms Clinton learned that lesson during the abortive health care reform exercise--and I think she has.

Except Hillary Clinton is nowhere near as charismatic as Barack Obama. Her persona is part of what alienated her potential allies on healthcare.

Roger,
That's exactly what I have been trying to say. Hillary is the conservative choice for the Democratic nomination. But liberals decide who the Democratic nominee is. Who cares which Democrat conservatives prefer?

Liberals want transformation and I doubt that after 2000 and 2004 they're going to go with a Washington Establishment insider from the Boomer-era who voted for the war. Maybe they will. But if Clinton weren't a woman, she would be about as low in the polls as Joe Biden.

chickenlittle said...

Obama and others are still basically running against Bush. Case in point: his remarks about meeting with certain heads of states was "Not what Bush would do".
Hillary is smart enough to recognize this as foolish strategy.

hdhouse said...

Sloanasaurus said...
I think compared to Obama, Clinton is better. But, compared to Giuliani, Clinton is a tax and spend liberal."

And just how did you devine this? Care to take a look at New York City's red ink when Rudy left office?

It may not be enough to "manage" the absolute mess Bush has made...it would be like herding cats....and my only real problem with Hillary is that she is an incrementalist. Obama has concluded right or wrong that the entire thing is so broken, so warped, by this administration that surgery is the answer. With that I agree.

Sloanasaurus said...

Obama has concluded right or wrong that the entire thing is so broken...

What exactly is this "thing" you are talking about.

If the "thing" is the current status of the American people, then it is not broken. The reason people complain so much these days about "things" is because everything is going well for them individually. Thus, they have time to complain.

So we complain about the "war." When relative to other wars, it is not much of a war.

We complain about "education" when in fact more people are more highly educated than ever before.

We complain about "health care" when most everyone has it and people live longer and more healthy lives than ever before.

We complain about inequality - the poorist among us are complaining on their cell phones.

We complain about the price of Gas as we are driving our SUVs to the video store

We live in a resentful society. Its a product of our own success.

Mortimer Brezny said...

Hillary is smart enough to recognize this as foolish strategy.

Not really. If that were true she wouldn't be nagging the Pentagon with letters or saying that all Democrats are united against Bush, the latter of which she mentions at every debate.

chickenlittle said...

Mortimer said "Not really. If that were true she wouldn't be nagging the Pentagon with letters or saying that all Democrats are united against Bush, the latter of which she mentions at every debate."

I'll give you that, but her answer the other night will get her positive attention from more centrists. Surely her handlers will not miss the opportunity.

Mortimer Brezny said...

http://www.politico.com/rogersimon/

Only if those centrists ignore that Hillary Clinton may not have known in what year Anwar Sadat visited Israel.

P. Rich said...

Roger: That's Mrs. Clinton, wife of former president Droptrou.

Moving along, "conservatives" is much too broad a term. Conservative Dems, maybe. True conservatives would slit their wrists before voting for a Clinton.

hdhouse said...
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hdhouse said...

hdhouse said...
Sloanasauraus..where does one start with you....

Sloanasaurus said...

"Thus, they have time to complain...."

Oh if everyone was just busier than there would be no complaints?

"So we complain about the "war." it is not much of a war."

Oh right. Longer than WW2 ring a bell?

"We complain about "education" ... more people are more highly educated than ever before."

No infact. We are in the middle 20s ranking in math and science...how do you like them apples putz?

"We complain about "health care" ..people live longer and more healthy lives than ever before."

Yo..shit for brains....where is our life expectancy? 28th behind Bosnia? and that is tied for 28th...actully we are in the 40s overall.

"We complain about inequality - the poorist among us are complaining on their cell phones."

Ahh the powers of the urban myth. yes i was shoved out of line by a welfare mom buying caviar while her driver parked the new mercedes.

"We complain about the price of Gas as we are driving our SUVs to the video store.."

listening to Rush are you?

Get real or get lost.

Roger said...

HD--please dont start with the life expectancy crap as a measure of the health care system--it's not and confirms the fact you know nothing about epidemiolgy. Nor does infant mortality. There are a lot reasons for their not being good indicators, and if you are genuinely interested I can tell you why because my PhD happens to be in epidemiology.

Roger said...

Mort--I meant to tell you this but the other thread had closed down. I finally got the point you were making yesterday as I was driving home. And I agree with your analysis, BTW. Sorry to have been so dense yesterday--old age is a bear sometimes.

Sloanasaurus said...

Hd, there is no need to remind us that you believe the glass is half empty. We knew that.

Pogo said...

Yes, for hdhouse it's always the 1930s, with fights breaking out in the Hooverville by the White House, little match girls on every corner, and underweight Okies driving model T's limping their way to California.

Weird, I'll grant you.

Steven said...

Since when does Andrew "Everything is about my sexuality" Sullivan know what conservatives are or are not coming to accept? Last time I checked, he was pretty out of step with mainstream political conservatism.

hdhouse said...

hey Roger dodger....he is the one who brought up "live longer"...not me.

the glass s as full as you want to make it. bush keeps emptying it into the cup runneth over crowd but the rest of use poor grunts just keep trying....

as to Pogo...well he is just the best example of a failed system i can cite.