February 28, 2006

What do women want?/What should women want?

Blogging about "The Apprentice" last night, I happened to write, "The Synergy folk are pushing manicures and massages -- you know, what women want." That prompted a commenter to ask:
Since you opened the door to this line of questioning, Ann, would you please tell us what women really DO want? And I don't mean at Sam's. Has anyone ever figured this out?
Today, John Tierney begins his column with the famous question. (TimesSelect link.)
Freud confessed that his "thirty years of research into the feminine soul" left him unable to answer one great question: "What does a woman want?" Modern feminists have been arguing for decades over a variation of it: What should a woman want?
What women should want is very different from what we do want, but what we do want is inevitably shaped by what we've come to think we should want, which is affected by what we're hearing we should want. Try disaggregating what you do want from what you think you should want, after first disaggregating what you think you should want from what other people seem to be saying you should want. It's damned hard! And it's not necessarily the way to happiness, but then, if you do manage to do all that, your skills at assessing your own happiness will be quite different from the skills of other people reporting to sociologists about whether they are happy.

Anyway, Tierney's column is really about a sociological study about what makes women happy in a marriage. So we're already dealing with the subset of women who have decided they want to be married, which probably means a greater concentration of individuals who are looking to another person to make them happy. But perhaps not. Do people marry because they want to be happy? There are many other reasons to marry!
[A]n equal division of labor didn't make husbands more affectionate or wives more fulfilled. The wives working outside the home reported less satisfaction with their husbands and their marriages than did the stay-at-home wives. And among those with outside jobs, the happiest wives, regardless of the family's overall income, were the ones whose husbands brought in at least two-thirds of the money.
Is it that women enjoy having a mate who outclasses them in earning power? Or is it just that it's better to have more money, and if I'm making X, I'd prefer to add 2X to my total than X? Where's the study of the men? Maybe the men making X also prefer a mate who brings in 2X?

Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me. I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are. When people are trying to make a marriage work, they try to keep their spirits up and believe in the enterprise. When the marriage is ending, they start realizing that they haven't been happy for a long time.

And then there's the way pundits latch onto these studies and run with them -- usually motivated by their own pre-existing policy preferences.

Of course, I don't have an answer to the question "What do women want?" other than to critique the tendency to ask the question in the first place. Frankly, I find it hard enough to discern what I want.

55 comments:

MadisonMan said...

Of course, I don't have an answer to the question "What do women want?" other than to critique the tendency to ask the question in the first place. Frankly, I find it hard enough to discern what I want.

That is the crux of the problem. You cannot treat women as some kind of aggregate whole -- unless you're dealing with 100s and 1000s of them. Someone like a sanitary napkin saleman.

My own personal interactions are with individual women, so it's best to treat them an individuals and not pigeonhole them into some "women" box that treats then all the same. They aren't.

If I don't know what an individual wants, is it rude to ask?

David said...

Most women want the same thing most men want! A happy home with mutual respect, laughter, tradition, routine, surprises, maybe children, and, God forbid, traditional roles.

The entire sitcom SEX IN THE CITY was written around the failure of men and women to communicate with each other in a meaningful way.

I know very few women who are happy leaving their children with strangers while they pursue a job outside the home.

Here is a revelation! Don't feel guilty about being a stay-at-home mom! Having your kids raised by others negates the joy and fulfillment of having them in the first place. Who has ever witnessed the bonding between mother and child when they first look at each other for the first time and not been humbled?

The big question, to which most of us already know the answer, is who is responsible for breaking that cherished bond for the workplace?

It doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes a committed and loving mother and father.

That is my humble opinion based on reflections on the passing of my Mother a few years ago. She was always home when we came home from school or work!

monkeyboy89 said...

Women want want they can't have.

I too would be interested to see the men's view. I would guess that it would be similar. Earning more money means more work hours and usuallly harder work. I wouldn't mind at all if my wife makes more than me, in fact I would prefer it, and thats what we are working for.

palinurus said...

I knew a man who spoke of going with his brothers and sisters for a Sunday ride in the country. Amidst the laughter and frolic, the sun broke through the clouds and shone down on the green mountainside. The man's sisters stopped laughing, looked at the sun coming through the clouds, and broke out into quiet tears. The man said he knew at that moment that women were not really understandable to men.

quietnorth said...

"Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me. I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are. When people are trying to make a marriage work, they try to keep their spirits up and believe in the enterprise. When the marriage is ending, they start realizing that they haven't been happy for a long time."

I've never heard it said better. These studies show what we want to say about ourselves, or believe about ourselves, not the way we "are" (if there is such a measurable thing)

Wade_Garrett said...

David - Sex and the City is not the only thing written about hte failure of men and women to communicate in a meaninful way. Even the ancient Greek playwrights were stumped.

MadisonMan said...

Who has ever witnessed the bonding between mother and child when they first look at each other for the first time and not been humbled?

I raise my cynical hand. What treacly pablum you write from behind those rose-colored glasses you must be wearing.

The many women in my neighborhood run the gamut from those who are committed nurturers, who stay home while their husbands work, to those who would wither away if they did that and thrive when they work. Then there are those who are divorced and widowed and have to work to support themselves and their families.

I hope my own kids see this variety and recognize that their world should not be defined solely as some 1950s definition of happiness that david seems to espouse, but rather by what makes their lives most fulfilling, productive, and contented.

I will also note that Traditional Roles are fine until tradition breaks down -- when the man leaves the wife, for example. Then what does the wife who has stayed home do? She has no current marketplace skills and she and her children will face a radical (and likely unwelcome) change in lifestyle.

Goesh said...

I haven't a clue as to what my wife sees in me that has kept her hanging in with me all these years, but I'm glad she has. I suspect she is able to simply ignore my obstinance. I would not be let down if it was for my garbage hauling-out ability and a knack for being able to chase mean looking stray dogs out of the yard. Maybe it's the way I dote on the granddaughters. I really don't have a clue.

Bruce Hayden said...

Ann, you have opened something up here that I think is going to generate a lot of comments. And I think that you hit it pretty good when you talked of disagreggation.

palinurus makes a good point, and, to some extent one made by a guy I work with at the ski area. He pointed out that we (men) are easy to please, and women aren't - I think maybe because often you (women) don't know what you want. He suggested that women are a lot more emotional and a lot more complex.

But what makes most of us men happy I think is to have a happy woman in our lives, taking care of our homes, our kids, and us, and then be left alone to do our thing. We would like it to be simple, as simple as pleasing us. It isn't, as pointed out by palinurus' story.

I think that what a lot of us men would like is an owner's manual for women, or, at least for the woman/women in our lives. Just read it, do what it says, and domestic life will be happy. And, then we can go back to whatever we really want to be doing - watching sports on TV, or, even blogging.

Of course, there is no owner's manual for women. You are all different, and, worse, different one day to the next, or one year to the next. So, the minute we think we have figured out how to get what what we want with you, so we can get back to what we want to do, it changes.

jult52 said...

Ever heard this saying?

Women don't know what they want -- but they don't like what they have.

Men know exactly what they want -- but, having obtained it, they grow bored.

Bruce Hayden said...

monkeyboy89 suggested that maybe what women want is what they don't have. Maybe some women. But I really think that it is more often that those who seem to want whatever they don't have, have some sort of unmet need that they are trying to have met, and they don't really know what it is. They just know that whatever they have right now isn't it.

Of course, we all do. But, I think, as I said before, that men to some extent are simpler and easier to please.

I have known a number of fairly happy women in my life - starting with my mother. I think my girlfriend too, in her two marriages (before you jump on that - she was widowed in the first one with two infants). I think in both those instances, they had, of course, needs, but stumbled (in my mother's case) or figured out (in the girlfriend's case) what these basic needs were first. And ended up with the guys necessary to meet those needs.

jim said...
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jult52 said...

Madison Man writes: "The many women in my neighborhood run the gamut from those who are committed nurturers.. to those who would wither away if they did that and thrive when they work."

Almost every one of my women friends is a professional women and I honestly don't know any who feel fulfilled by their work. Now I wholeheartedly support the idea that individuals should be able to pursue their career interests unfettered by gender restrictions, but it's worth noting that men and women have very different attitudes towards their work and career. I rarely hear women talking about how they love their work and, when I do, I am suspicious and try to read between the lines.

jim said...

amen to "Frankly, I find it hard enough to discern what I want."

in a very few words, that is the essence to the individual. (oh, even the male persona, i think).

the rest falls under societal (of varying degrees) critique and expectation.

leeontheroad said...
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Bruce Hayden said...

jult52

I agree for the most part, but there are plenty of men who don't get bored with what they have, and plenty of women who figure out what they really do want, or are getting it regardless. And many of them are together.

I will admit that the one who got away in my life was because I was bored. I had her all through college. It was too easy. And I did get bored, and ended up losing her because of that.

leeontheroad said...

[once more, with (fewer) typos]

Goesh, perhaps its your humility, sense of humor and apparent humanity. I read all three in your response; and I was charmed.

My own experience suggests that what one wants changes. Duh.
When I was almost finished with an education and had a career, I wanted a stable, loving relationship. I wanted to raise children who would contribute more than they take. I wanted a house. I wanted a vacation. I wanted new shoes and world peace and to be able to eat ice cream without gaining weight. I wanted not to care whether I gained weight.

Now I want to retire comfortably, in good health , so I can garden, travel, volunteer a few days a week, perhaps. Hopefully, I'll "borrow" grandchildren often. oh, and eat ice cream without gaining weight-- and negatively affecting my cholesterol levels.

jult52 said...

Bruce -- I'm not sure I believe the aphorism but I think it's witty and probably contains a grain of truth.

SippicanCottage said...
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Troy said...

I think the studies are also biased in favor of "happiness". "Happiness" is fleeting. Yes I am happy in my marriage (doubt away Ann! :-) ), but yesterday I was pissed off because I was trying to do a techie thing for her and it was digging into some work I needed to do. I was also happy yesterday in my marriage. Big damn deal? More importantly, I am satisfied and I have joy all the time everyday.

What do women want? They want what they want. Don't look at how they respond to surveys -- look at their actions (ditto men). What most people don't want in today's materialist culture is limits placed on them which takes us back to "They want what they want" (men too obviously) consequences be damned (or at least delayed as far off as possible).

Bodie said...

I know what this woman has no interest in - massages and manicures.

David - My two (grown) children were both in daycare during the workday while my husband and I were at work, yet neither of them were "raised by others." They definitely had experiences with their day friends and caregivers that were broader than I could have given them at home, but they came home each day to loving and attentive parents. I don't think the joy of family life has been "negated" by this experience.

You seem to believe that deep inside (even if only secretly) all women wish to be "traditional" stay-at-home mothers. I can't speak for all women and I don't think anyone can, but I can tell you that there is NO level on which I ever desired this "traditional" role. I knew then that I didn't have the patience or inclination to devote myself to homemaking 24/7.

There was a lot of pressure to take on such a role (not by my husband, but by family who couldn't believe that I could possibly find my work as fascinating and fulfilling as full-time child rearing, and by the unaccommodating work world), and it sometimes seemed it would have been oh so much easier to give up on the career goals. However, I wondered, if I couldn't make the work/family balance work out, what could I in good conscience tell my daughter when she asked what she could be when she grew up? Would I be willing to tell her that she could be anything she wanted OR she could be a mother? Would I be willing to tell her that she had to choose? Would I be willing to tell her she could "have it all" but send her out with no role model of how to do it? I don't think so.

I love being a parent, I love what I do professionally, and I really love that my children see me both as "Mom" and as a person of particular professional expertise.

Bruce Hayden said...
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Bruce Hayden said...

I wonder if what we (as men) see as fickle in women is a natural result of women typically picking the men. I have heard many times, and I think it has some truth, that women are the ones who really pick the mate, not the men. We go after a bunch of women, and end up with the one who picks us.

And this is not uncommon with other animals too - where the males strut and parade, etc., trying to make themselves attractive, and the females do the choosing. You see it in a lot of animals. For example, we had turkeys on the road by our house when I was married. And the toms would blow themselves up, their tails would fan out, and they would strut (just like you see all over the place at thanksgiving - but never on your table).

Semanticleo said...

It is easier to ask the question;

"What do I want" That is mysterious
enough on it's face.

Essentially people want their cake,
and to be able to eat it as well.

Condundrums ad infinitum.

Hence the oft quoted dictum;

'Be careful of what you wish for;
you may get it.'

jult52 said...

Mary: "I cringe every time you use them to support your generalized statement."

Why do you cringe? Because they're inferior to widely-criticized "happiness surveys"?

peter hoh said...

Ann wrote: So we're already dealing with the subset of women who have decided they want to be married, which probably means a greater concentration of individuals who are looking to another person to make them happy. But perhaps not.

I'll submit that "looking to another person to make them happy" is a recipe for disaster.

Ideally, my happiness does not come from someone else, or from being in relationship with someone else. Practically, being in a good relationship contributes to our happiness, and being in a bad relationship contributes to our misery.

But if I depend on someone else for my sense of happiness (or well being) I'm setting myself up for disappointment, which will increase my misery.

Want to know another recipe for disappointment? Assuming that your partner knows (or should know) what you really want, but won't provide it. This is even more pernicious if one partner can't quite articulate what he or she wants, but expects his/her partner to provide it.

INMA30 said...

Do y'all really buy all this broad generalization of "women want this", "men are like that"?

Perhaps its just my sphere of acquaintances, but I am not sure I really see these Borg-like manifestations out there. Could be a NY thing, in which case I guess its a good thing I am here.

palinurus said...

Re generalizations, there is nothing wrong with them, as long as no one is applying them as laws. Admittedly, they are stronger if supported by some experience or other data, and, oh, yes, by reason. But if we are to be bound only by what we can prove with hard data, we can close down 99% of the blogs, shut our mouths, and go home to stew in our narrow, finite universes of hard data.

Bruce Hayden said...

Thanks,

I do give away too much personal information. Fine if it is about me, but often it isn't. My mother is gone, but the girlfriend isn't. I was called on this by my ex, and as a result try to leave anything to do with her and our progeny intentionally quite vague. Mostly, I just bite my tongue there and don't say anything, even if relevant.

Mostly, I think it is just me, and only marginally has to do with the forum. It has been pointed out to me that I do this in real life too.

So, figure I probably should yank that one post above.

Bruce Hayden said...

Mary,

I missed the one where I took advantage of female dates. In the 40 years since I first dated, I think I may have pushed too hard once or twice, but overall, I think my record better than most guys in this area.

Bruce Hayden said...

Mary, point taken.

SteveR said...

This topic reminds me of a book I once found in my dad's footlocker, "Women, What I Know From 40 Years Experience"

Inside, the book was blank.

Brendan said...

Men want sex and a second mommy; women want security. Next question.

vbspurs said...

Most women want the same thing most men want!

Amen.

A happy home with mutual respect, laughter, tradition, routine, surprises, maybe children, and, God forbid, traditional roles.

Except for the last bit, which will have certain people frothing at the mouth, that's exactly right.

As is the Sex and The City allusion.

I rarely missed an episode in the last season, and all these "girls" did was to talk about men, think about men, and how they would end up with men.

Although at heart women want security from men, yes, they also like to be married so as not to be thought such losers, than no man would have them.

This also goes for women who live with men, without the benefit of marriage.

It's about perception of worth.

Your own, and others about you.

Cheers,
Victoria

vbspurs said...

"Women, What I Know From 40 Years Experience"

Inside, the book was blank.


*LOL!*

Although this sums up another well-worn chestnut about the male-female relationship:

Men don't understand women.
Women think they understand men.


This has always struck me as possibly true, but still the very worst extreme.

It suggestions:

One leaves frustrated and wanting more samples; the other leaves them bored and wanting her sample to be different.

Sigh.

Cheers,
Victoria

howzerdo said...

It has been said here before by others, but I don't know that women want different things than men. And I doubt that all women, or all men, want the same things. Life is a process, and few things stay the same. I can only define what I want (and to be honest I haven't found it very difficult to determine). I want to be happy. Sometimes that isn't possible (for example, when grieving) but often, depending on perception - it is. Oh, and at the moment, I want maple candy :-).
Gina

Henry said...

Somehow all this reminded me of an old Matt Groenig cartoon -- The 9 Types of Boyfriends / The 9 Types of Girlfriends from Love is Hell.

A highlight:

2. Old Man Grumpus - "People are stupid. The world can go to hell. Let's stay home and watch TV."
Also known as: Grumbles, Sour puss, Stick-in-the-mud, Old Fogey, Slow Mover, Jerk
Advantages: Stays put; predictable
Disadvantages: Royal pain in the ass


I don't think Freud was funny enough to take on this subject.

reader_iam said...

I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are.

Do you ou always trust the assertions of single people how about happy they are?

Mike said...

Look no further than the wisdom of the Rolling Stones' "Some Girls"...

"[American] girls want everything in the world you could possibly imagine."

knoxgirl said...

I have always thought how "Sex and the City" ends is funny. Here are these women who are sexually promiscuous and experimental (to varying degrees), liberated and fiercely independent.

In the series finale, they ALL end up in very serious, committed relationships (even Samantha!) complete with a Disney-worthy fairytale that ends with a prince charming coming to Sarah Jessica Parker's rescue (in Paris, no less).

It was the kind of ending I felt like the characters could have easily sneered at over lunch in previous episodes... and it says something about what's "supposed" to make women happy...

37383938393839383938383 said...

Ann: Maybe the men making X also prefer a mate who brings in 2X?

Actually, Tierney addressed that question in an earlier column, noting that while men will marry up, women refuse to marry down. I think he is just completing the circle of the studies he has reviewed, assuming that constant readers of his columns recall earlier surveys of studies, e.g., Kristof not repeating every assertion he has ever made abour Darfur when he writes about it for the umpteenth time.

Aspasia M. said...

1) I want chocolate, cheesecake and massages!

2) Most people would quit their paying jobs if they won the lottery.

I think that many mothers and fathers wish they had more time to spend as a family. My father told me and my sister that he was the happiest when he was spending time with his family.

3) My husband supports my dreams and I support his. We're both secure in our love for each other. It works for us.

Ann Althouse said...

Critical Observer: But Tierney is saying women like the traditional role, while I'm saying maybe they just like having more money. If men like the extra money too, that undercuts his traditionalism theory.

Reader Iam: I don't trust anyone's assertions about how happy they are, but I think single people tend to complain about their situation and think if they had a good relationship they'd be happier. Married people are supposed to think they've reached the goal, so it is much harder for them to admit it's not good. And acting like it is good is part of what you need to do to make it work. When you're single, you don't have to try to hold anything together. You tend to be working toward getting somewhere else, not preserving the status quo. For these reasons, I think married people are more likely to misjudge their own happiness.

David said...

geoducky;

I agree whole-heartedly with you. Most people spend more time choosing a car than they do a mate. I can hardly wait to get home to my family from a long, hard days work. Why would I wish that on my wife?

Commitment, responsibility, respect, and devotion to something other than yourself. You get out of marriage what you put into it.

My advice is grow up, life is short, health is a crap shoot (depending on your genetic make-up), and before you know it you are wearing depends and trying to get by without viagra while your wife is suffering hot flashes, fanning her blouse at the dinner table, estrogen deprived meltdowns, and caring for aging parents.

You better have a sense of humor to weather this part of MATURITY! It is not for the faint-hearted!

Johnny Nucleo said...

Ann Althouse said: "What women should want is very different from what we do want..."

But if we're talking "should", shouldn't men and women want the same things?

What men actually want is sex and power.

But again, putting aside what women should want, what is it that they actually do want? Security seems too easy, but maybe that's all there is to it. Could it be that women don't like that answer because they think it limits them or makes them seem embarrassingly ambitionless? Or maybe for women, security equals sex and power, and men and women actually want the same things but perceive them through different prisms.

It's fascinating that women can't - or won't - answer the question.

David said...

Most women first date the 'dangerous dude' who is the antithesis of their boring father. This is a vain attempt to exercise their budding will and identity crisis resolution before they realize that ole Dad is, hopefully, dependable and motivated to provide the best he can for the safety and security of his family.

Most boys, who are constantly reminded that they are inferior to girls because girls mature faster, watch as the girls go after the popular guys in school. The boys then generally get a job and start saving money for college or a car or both.

The pursuit of money, prestige, and position is important but not all encompassing. Happiness comes from the simple pleasures in life.

We all march into life with high hopes and expectations. We should never lose sight of the importance of dreams. A lesson I learned in the military came after our position was bombed by friendlies. When we asked the sqaudron commander how such a thing could have happened we heard comments about the fog of war, etc. The final analysis though was:

"If we are not meeting your requirements, lower your expectations..."

Home is where the heart is and pass the visine!

David said...

By the way, anybody remember their 5, 10, 15 year highschool reunion? Talk about change in attitudes and change in lattitudes!

That is a topic of discussion worth the effort!

Finn Kristiansen said...

David said...
Most women want the same thing most men want!


That is the most absurd statement I have ever heard (this week), and one of those nice banalities that people toss out in an "up with people", equality of the sexes kind of way.

If that were actually true, the dollars spent on say, phone sex, would be equal between the sexes. Or, divorce rates would be lower (as their would be fewer disagreements over money). Or Nascar would not have 49 men and a woman in any given race.

A host of statistics show that men and women spend their time and money differently, and how you spend your time and money is the clearest indication of what you might actually want, actions speaking louder than statements of intent.

Troy said it a little better:
What do women want? They want what they want.

And to know what they WANT, look at what they do:

Most women know what Sephora is. The average woman must like makeup more than the average man. Hmmmm.

Women tend to marry up, despite copious opportunities to marry down. Hmmmm.

And so on. It matters little what women say they want because 1)half the time they lie to you (for appearances sake, like not telling their ages)and 2) the other half the time they are (knowingly)lying to themselves. Again, actions (for men and women) speak louder than declarations of preference.

It's like all the women I know (and am infatuated with) who tell me reassuring things like, "Don't lose weight or change yourself for a woman; the woman you like will like you for you, and for your great personality. Just be you). And I just stare at them wide eyed, while they go on to confide in me about their badboy boyfriends, illicite relationships with married guys, and various other "soulmates." Obviously the advice they give does not apply to themselves (or, I am hideous and my personality is foul and the "being me" is really not the best option).

I believe my own thought, and believe that what is generally true of all women, will be true in the heart of any one woman, statistically speaking.

Aspasia M. said...

Finn said,

I believe my own thought, and believe that what is generally true of all women, will be true in the heart of any one woman, statistically speaking.

As a woman, I disagree. While I was always attracted to geeks, my sister is interested in different things in a man.

For example, my computer geek husband courted me by joining the literary magazine at college and telling be about books he liked, like Bulgakov's _The Master and Margarita_.

This would not work at all for my sister.

I can't even figure out exactly what my sister wants. She was briefly dating one of those dot-com millionaires, and she turned him down for a man who is training to be an electrician. Both are nice guys.

Bruce Hayden said...

I think that it is almost hard wired that women want to marry up, and not down, and, thus, that suggestion that women look to marry the guy making more than they do, but the guy doesn't care as much. This, I suspect, is a result of a drive to get the best genetics possible for their offspring.

But, as has been noted before in this forum, this is going to have to change. With somewhere around half the lawyers and doctors graduating being women, it is inevitable that there are going to be more and more high earning women, compared to men, and they all can't marry up. The numbers just won't allow it.

Bruce Hayden said...

Finn Kristiansen

To some extent, I would suggest that the reason that some married women screw around on their husbands is that in monogomous species, as ours is somewhat, there is always a dynamic for the females between getting the best genes for their offspring and finding the best mate they can. This dynamic is esp. interesting when it comes to humans, given the esp. long time and substantial resources that it takes to raise kids. Women need to convince their mate that the kids they are having are theirs, so that the men will contribute the necessary time and resources to raise the kids.

Thus, to some extent, a drive by some women to cheat on their husbands. Now days, presumably, much of the extramaritial sex is protected, but when we were evolving, it wasn't. But, then also, the men available were usually close enough genetically that the women could often get away with having one man raise another man's children.

Lest you think that I am suggesting that women are the only, or even, primary, ones who cheat, I am not. Men have similar, but opposite built in drives for procreation. The kids of their own that they raise with their mate have a better chance at survival, and thus, an incentive to marry. But all the rest of the kids they can father are bonuses, as far as spreading their genes is conderned. And, since the cost here is lower for cheating, men are probably more likely to cheat on their wives, than visa versa.

thefewandtheplenty said...

"Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me."

That comment is careless. I doubt you have given the studies more than a glance. Or have you examined any of them at all?

Finn Kristiansen said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Finn Kristiansen said...

geoduck2:

I said "statistically speaking" the aggragate of what all women want will generally apply to any specific woman. I am sure there are slight deviations.

In the case of you and your sister, you both wanted relationships with nice guys who are employed! That one is in computers and the other electronics hardly matters. I take from this that women want relationships (among many other things).

(I like your husband's book choice that he used to seduce you).

Chris O'Brien said...

What do women want?

Hell I'm just trying to get them to stop throwing drinks in my face.