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"This is not a game. This is the lives of our kids."The U.S. military is now letting kids volunteer? Things have changed. At least during Vietnam we had to be 18.
Is the first link amiss?
He probably used the word "kids" because his son died, and I assume there were other parents of dead soldiers there. I know my mother still refers to her grown offspring as "kids".Or were you being ironic? If so, apologies.
Wildabout: Yes, I was being ironic but no, no need to apologize. My own daughter is 18 and I still call her 'kiddo,' but only in private so as not to embarrass her. And if she chooses to put her life on the line in defense of our freedoms, you will never hear me publicly refer to her as a 'kid.'
I do believe that it's okay to declare war on the leaders of a regime, but not on its people or its army. How to effectuate "regime change," i.e, the military tactics to be used against a country's leaders, short of total war, is still an interesting problem. At least, we make it clear that the Iraqi people, even the ones "loyal" to Sadaam are not our goal, Sadaam, his inner circle and henchmen are. We did say, after all, that if Sadaam and his sons left Iraq for another country that war could be averted. I would apply my method of non-war to the Iranian situation. If the U.N. declares the Iranians of being in violation of their nuclear non-proliferation agreements then the U.N. should outlaw the leaders of the regime and try to assassinate them by dropping bombs on any place they may be hiding or congregating. We will rue the day when that Islamo-fascist regime acquires nuclear-tipped missiles.
Ruth Anne: Thanks. Fixed. Can we talk about the bad taste of the monument and the meaning of the message of eating Iraqi food for Thanksgiving?
One: the momument looks like an animal cracker. Will it be next to a Michael Moore hippo in the box? What liberal will be the monkey with pants?Two: No Gravy? No good!Three: Perhaps some group of conservatives should eat a turkey killed by car bomb in solidarity with the suffering of Iraqis now! It's no less absurd!
Ann,Don't you mean "the bad taste of the food and the meaning or the message of the monument?" Isn't this war and the next - possibly nuclear war - the real issue. Are you hoping they get indigestion? The prospect of nuclear war does that to me in spades.
I don't know about the meaning, but it sounds pretty darn yummy. I have to confess, I would never have imagined Iraqis to be big on salmon. Globalization maybe?La Mediterranee, 2936 College Ave, next time you are in Berkeley. Wonderful food from the Mediterranean and the Middle East. Terrific atmosphere, and good college prices too.
Quxxo: What, you're not familiar with the great salmon runs up the Tigris and Euphrates? Undecided: I set the topics, and they are the issues on any given post. There is a nuclear destruction post up from yesterday. Why don't you go there and talk about it?
I find gamma rays from atomic explosions the absolute best way to keep my holiday turkeys nice and juicy on the inside and golden brown on the outside!I'm just surprised that a bunch of war protesters ate salmon. I assumed they were all vegans.I wonder where they got the food? Is there a Whole Foods in Crawford? Is that too corporate for an anti-war dinner?As an aside, does Cindy Sheehan have to be in the midst of an open-mouthed guffaw every time someone takes her picture? She sure seems to be having a great time. It sort of makes her staged "grieving mother" pictures seem, well, staged.
Hundred bucks says someone will be worshipping the stone "monument" by Christmas....Cindy Sheehan is thankful she can live on someone else's dime. (Sorry -- I've lost sympathy for her. Awful I'm sure
The food and the monument is all part of the shtick of the anti-war movement, which uses metaphors instead of argument because their arguments are simplistic. This 'movement' is a fetish of the '60s movement, mostly about themselves, their "feelings" and their "activism" and their alienation.Note that the article fails to mention that the Bush supporter is an actual Iraqi as opposed to Cindy and her band of fake Iraqis. All references to this seem to his nationality have disappeared from Google.And the article once again reminds us of the failing support for Bush, yada, yada. This is a full court press to guarantee a Bush loss on Iraq. What happens afterwards really doesn't matter to them.
Pat... sure the failure matters... Then they can blame Bush for continued terror attacks on US soil in the next decade and try to solidify a Dem power politically.As much as I try to think Rockefeller, Reid, etc. really care about this country... they really seem to be craven bastards.... Not fully vconvinced of this yet. Perhaps they care, but their vision of what this country could be is so warped and wussified....
As always, the interesting part is who's picking up the tab for all this traveling, food catering, monument building, etc. Somebody is renting the land, space, or whatever it is they're squatting on. Setting up camp takes planning and money. Sheehan doesn't seem to have unlimited funds or a lot of smarts, so who's behind this effort?
I apologize for veering somewhat off the topic. As far as the other macho pro-war posters on your blog, I'm all in favor of them spending Thanksgiving in Iraq with our troops. I'm also in favor of them suiting up and taking up positions next to our brave troops. The comments about vegans and Whole Foods Market shoppers are what's really tasteless. Do you know what's really in your Thanksgiving dinner? You might not so readily give thanks if you knew that the turkey was shot full of antibiotics/vaccines to prevent things like bird flu. People have died from Mad Cow disease by eating hamburger. A vegan is not at risk. Farm raised salmon is generally contaminated with toxic chemicals used in the process of making plump perfectly pink salmon. People pay a premium for wild-caught salmon around where I live. But since many of the natural salmon runs have been destroyed by indiscriminate logging, the price you have to pay for wild salmon is outrageous. I should know because I live across the street from an upscale seafood restaurant in Santa Monica, Ca. By the way, the Santa Monica Bay is highly polluted and you take a grave risk by catching fish off the Santa Monica pier and eating it. These are the contaminated unhealthy times we live in. The Thanksgiving feast is now over, so you can all return to your usual diet of McDonald's burgers and freedom frys. I hope I've sufficiently returned to Ann's topic to avoid further reproach.
I hate to say it, but I'm cynic enough that my first thought was, "I wonder if it was farmed salmon or wild salmon?" Quxxo: Great recommendation! Deserves another one, too: Great China on Kittrdege north of Shattuck. Like most of the "best" Chinese restaurants, no atmosphere - almost a hole in the wall - but fabulous food at a decent price.
Undecided: I think the records show that the destruction of the natural salmon runs has more to do with the widespread building of dams than it does with logging. (If I am wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.)Hamburger wasn't a part of my meal on Thanksgiving, so I didn't worry too much about Mad Cow. Those who are careful about where and who they buy their turkey from can avoid the things you mention. BTW, it seems to me anyone inoculating turkeys against avian flu at this stage are wasting their time, money and probably buying a pig-in-a-poke (an unfortunate phrase under the circumstances but I'll let it remain).
I'm no expert, but vaccinating turkeys against bird flu doesn't sound particularly insane to me...
IR, responding to Undecided, not you. Pig-in-a-poke? Yum!
Undecided:What do you think these thug regimes have armies for? Their military and secret police are the basis of their power. You aren't just going to be able to waltz in and remove people from power. You have to kill those willing to protect their power.Wars aren't fought because killing people is dandy, it's use of violence in order to impose your political will on your opponent. It sucks that civilians often die in that situation, and I will agree with you that waging war on a civilian population should be avoided at all costs, but your "non-war" idea just isn't going to work in the real world.
The monument is in very poor taste. If you are going to do one, and you shouldn't in the first place, at least dedicate it to the people you are supposedly concerned about- the troops.Also, it's debatable how much you can "support the troops" by wanting them not to do their jobs, any more than you can be the spouse of a fireman or policeofficer and say you support that husband or wife while daily begging them to quit due to the danger inherent in doing the job.It's also amazing that they can try to imply solidarity with Iraqis via the food they are eating, while at the same time arguing that troops should come home (and against Iraqi desires) and that Iraqis were better off under Saddam to begin with. Let's just think about that. Imagine Bush's daughter's married, and then him murdering their husbands, and then Bush gassing Harlem or Chinatown. Unfathomable that we would think such a ruler more than adequate for them, while outrageous for us.(Oh, and the guy whose son died in Afghanistan, he shouldn't even be there at all.)
It's tasteless and also IMO a poor strategic choice because the only pull this anti-war group has is to try and cast themselves as "average Americans" whose appearance speaks to the "mood of the country" and not crazy loons and 60's throwbacks trying to distance themselves from a mainstream America who isn't going to like being attacked for enjoying "fat turkeys."
(who == which)
I'm no expert, but vaccinating turkeys against bird flu doesn't sound particularly insane to meNot insane as a way to protect the bird, but people can't get bird flu by eating poultry. Bird-to-human transmission of flu happens when people inhale pulverized bird droppings that have dried out and can become airborne.
I haven't been reading all that much about the bird flu, but I don't get it: Can you get bird flu from a cooked bird? I always assume raw meat is contaminated with salmonella and handle it accordingly, so is there any reason to worry about getting bird flu from turkey or chicken? It's not as though it's going to sneeze on me.
That's what I mean - protect the bird, by all means. I don't want someone from Butterball getting sick and spreading it throughout the plant, the town, the state, etc.
FYI Undecided, I did most of my shopping for Thanksgiving at Whole Foods this year, though the turkey (fresh, organic and free range, just like the featers at Plimoth may have eaten) was ordered from a local supplier. There was no beef served, so "mad cow disease" was not a possibility, and though there was pork, it was also organic and well cooked, so no Trichinellosis either.Now that the holiday is over, I'll have to finish all the leftovers before returning to my regular diet which, aside from being home cooked dinners and frequent burritos from Chipotle for lunch, does sometimes include hamburgers and fries (I wish the "freedom fries" canard would fade away; did anyone ever hear that phrase aside from the doofus who proposed it and the million sarcastic repetitions of it?). Except I prefer my burgers to come from either Peter Luger's (when I've got some free time at lunch) or from Burger King. Triple Whopper, mmm!
APF: I agree. i think it's really bad PR to be conspicuous about not eating a classic Thanksgiving dinner in the situation where they want to seem to represent the real America. And salmon? Really! It's less Iraqi than just upper middle class America. If they want to make a show of sacrificing, they shouldn't have meat/fish at all.
The last line if the first story refers to a military wife. Obviously, I don't know her or her husband but I can't imagine that her husband would be okay with her at an anti-war protest. Growing up in an army family (Dad was 20+ years enlisted), I listened to my Mom complaining about the wives who would start crying on TV when their husbands deployed. Yes, she cried too but NEVER where my Dad could see her when he left. She was adament that he wouldn't be distracted with worrying how she was handling things.
According to Ms. Sheehan and many of her supporters at Camp Casey destroying the Taliban was also an illegal act of American imperialist aggression (orchestrated by Israel). It's one of those small details that the Democrats and media who were championing her cause like to ignore.I'd just like to ignore her completely.
Ann,As I understand it, you can only get bird flu from handling lots and lots of live infected birds. Cooked flow is fine. I think the reference to vacination had to do with bad chemicals entering the human food chain becuase of attempts to protect birds. As in growth hormones in cattle. Back to the Menu: I would have thought that mutton, with bulgar wheat or rice, a yogurt based dressing on a salad, and the local honey'd pastry would be culturally appropriate, but what do I know.
Well, shoot me with toxins and call me a salmon.I was going to make some tabouli for my vegetarian son and husband this afternoon. Now maybe I won't. As a protest. Do you think anyone will give a damn?Sheesh, I'm feeling snippy today. Durn cough medicine.
Ron, LOL, it does look like an animal cracker! Time and budget constraints?Undecided,Your non-war sentiments are fine if Santa Monicans are fighting Palos Verdosians, but in the larger world, we are all cavemen and must act accordingly.
For the record: I didn't think we needed to attack as soon as we did.We should have sent more troops.Once we got in though, we need to stay and finish, and yesI did fight in my generation's war.Now on to my topic:Cindy's son was an adult and a volunteer (several times as I understand it). He was old enough to make his own decisions and take the risks. I don't understand some on the LLL, particularly the black community that say that:The volunteer army is an economic draft that forces the poor and un-educated into the army where they will die. First, recruits are generally better educated than their cohort, slightly more rural and have better criminal records than those who don't serve. If we didn't want this "economic draft" we'd have two choices.1. Raise military salaries to the point where we'd get enough preppies to join to meet our goal of entrapping the rich. Having done that, the LLL would whine that the military cost too much and the black community would howl when potential black recruits could not join at will (quality discrimination) because the higher salaries and higher standards squeezed the bottom of the market. or2. Bring back a draft. The military would howl, because the last thing it wants is an un-motivated, high turn-over pool of candidates. The LLL would howl at sending non-volunteers off to fight our wars. Having said that (just joking here folks) I love that Heinlein premise in "Starship Troopers" that allowed folks to perform "National Service" but restricted suffrage to veterans. Not because they were smarter, but because they had demonstrated a willingness to commit to the community.
I support the war but I don't find the monument itself particularly offensive, maybe I'm missing something. Sheehan's use of it and the dead soldiers' names to further her own ends is offensive, though. And yes, Sheehan does seem to be having an awfully good time with her grieving, kinda reminds me of the Wellstone memorial service. Maybe this is a little mean, but she comes across as a not-particularly-bright person revelling in being the center of attention. Of course, George Bush comes across like that too sometimes.
On vegans and pacifists, see Dr. Helen's comments on vegetarianism.On bird flu, it's not just the birds anymore. It's pigs, too.Undecided: Are you so sure that vegans aren't at risk for mad cow?
"Goatwhacker said... I support the war but I don't find the monument itself particularly offensive, "Maybe I am too retro, but Goatwhacker, please note that the feet of the monument at "Peace signs".Peace signs are fine for an anti-war protest I guess, but I can't see how they are compatible with a "we support the troops" message. A peace sign on a war dead monument would not be deemed appropriate by nearly all of those 2000 dead hero's inscribed on it.
Goatwhacker, I don't know if this makes a difference but the names on the memorial are of 20 or so soldiers whose families participate in Sheehan's cause, so I guess they approved, at least. And as her son has been gone for more than a year, I don't hold it against her that she smiles, laughs, etc. Miss Manners wrote that smiles are "infinitely more complicated than tears".That said, she does sound like a stoner when she speaks.
Salmon, lentils, rice with almonds and a salad of parsley, tomatoes, cucumbers and bulgur wheat.I don't know about the symbolism, but it sounds like a very yummy meal.But salmon in Iraq? Must be all that globalization....I believe Sheehan isn't getting enough credit for leading the way to where Murtha, Dicks, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy, the Iraqi Government, and even Condoleeza Rice are today, which is all speaking about withdrawal sooner, rather than later, and discussing timetables and benchmarks.She has done a lot in a few short months to let the pointy head bosses understand that the American People know what's going on.
quxxo: "She has done a lot in a few short months to let the pointy head bosses understand that the American People know what's going on."Speak for yourself, please, because I don't think you speak for "the American People".
Yeah okay, drj, you're right, I don't speak for the American People, though I never said I did.Regardless of the phase of grief that you are in, 70-80% of the people that think outing Plame was a big deal, and the 65% of the people that disapprove of Bush.An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, taken this month, found that majorities of Americans now say the war was not worth it (52 percent said it wasn't, 42 percent said it was); that Bush had misled the country about prewar intelligence (57 percent vs. 35 percent); and that the president has not given good reasons to keep US troops there (58 percent to 38 percent).And that's what it is, the Cindy Sheehan Save Our Kids and he World Anti-Massacre Movement, andall you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.
"I believe Sheehan isn't getting enough credit for leading the way to where Murtha, Dicks, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy, the Iraqi Government, and even Condoleeza Rice are today, which is all speaking about withdrawal sooner, rather than later, and discussing timetables and benchmarks."That's an assumption, and it's equally reasonable to assume that nervous Reps running in 2006 have demanded some sort of good news on Iraq rather than crediting a protest movement consisting of about 12 people. The Kennedys et al. will of course claim credit if we win and withdraw and will of course blame the Reps if we withdraw and surrender.
PatCa, It isn't possible that you believe our military are planning their strategy around Mrs. Sheehan's demands, or even the demands of the liberal establishment or Democrats in congress or even the Republicans in congress.That is too silly. No one, even those who drink the Kool-Aid three times a day can believe that to be true.
There is no way to quantify Sheehan's effect on war sentiment, public opinion has too many factors involved. My observation would be the people who agreed with Sheehan in the first place tend to credit her with much more power than those who did not.
Here's to a re-delete? You want Ann or any of us bloggers to check the creds of commenters? You must not have a real job.
Nope, I don't want Ann to check the creds of commenters... unless she's commenting on commenters commenting on Atrios. As she was. LOL.
Svejk: Wow! That was an illuminating comment. Positively educational, in fact. Why stop there, though? There were hundreds of other posts and I'm sure it would not take you but a few minutes to provide outsiders like us background for the other 800 or so. Don't confine yourself to the nasty ones, though. Take the extra few seconds and give us the life histories of the one or two who weren't being bombastic or ironical.Does everyone who visits the site get issued a handbook detailing who's who and what? Does your site handbook spell out what certified feminist women are allowed to say and when, the special words reserved for the exclusive use of those verified to be black, gay, brown, yellow, or transgendered? One would need a chart to keep track, I would think.Yes, very enlightening indeed. I hope the good professor leaves it there in all its "glory" as a testament to you, your group, and its special system of approved speech for different people.
Good Lord! At my very wordiest, I've never been able to come up with a comment that long.Heck, I'm not sure whether I've ever come up with a POST that long.I'm in awe.
Ronin: I think you're response provides a good indication of what was there. These folks already aired that topic repetitiously on another post. I took the trouble to answer them. They know my answer. That's the end from here. Hijacking a thread to air an old grievance is very bad form. Reposting the same comment after I've deleted is entirely out of line, a display of complete bad faith.
quxxo, from that article you linked:"The media coverage of the investigation that led to Libby's indictment made it abundantly clear that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and wasn't working with Al Qaeda. And many voters apparently decided that they were, in fact, misled......Bush's credibility problem isn't with the Democrats. Recent polls show increasing numbers of Bush's own voters feel they were misled."I think you're giving Cindy Sheehan credit that belongs elsewhere.
I am saying Cindy was the leading edge and her simple statements and ethical behavior and obvious sacrifice gave her lots of credibility with a lot of people.I don't think she was sufficient, but Cindy Sheehan or someone like her was neccessary, and I want to give her the credit she is due for taking her brave stance.She took and takes a lot of underdeserved heat and that has made it possible for our representatives to take the stances they are now taking.The truth of the matter, is that these guys should have taken those stances two and three years ago, but that is impossible in a Price Is Right (fight over the middle) Strategy two party system.Dumb two party systems.... I would really like to know more about the consitutionality of various proportional reform and multi-winner election systems. Would it be possible to implement these for US House and Senate positions in a state by state fashion? Would it require an amendment? What short of amendment would it require? What is the best strategy for a public interest group to take? Ann?
quxxo: You're making a poor post hoc ergo propter hoc argument here that is not disprovable unless you feel it's within the realm of possibilities that Americans will some time want to dramatically increase the military footprint in Iraq at some point--something which may well have been warranted a long time ago but no longer, and which never has been a position argued for by the Administration.
quxxo, yes, she was brave to dedicate so much of herself for a cause she believes in, and she does take a lot of heat (although it took a while for folks to figure out how to dis the mother of a dead soldier), but she is so incoherent that I think most of her influence is of the "well, that poor woman" variety. Maybe it depends on where you live. 'Round here, as the song goes, the lack of anticipated outcomes drives opinions (and reinforces, for those who never really thought things were as depicted). Plus the Plame leak. Plus the torture debate. Plus the pushback. Etc.
AFP, I have no idea where you think I am making such an argument (I wonder if you may still be suffering from a tryptophan high), but yeah, lots of respict'ble folk are still actually making that argument.Bucking the tide, McCain calls for more troops in IraqDonny RumsNamara is still saying that if that's what the commanders in the field want, that's what they'll get, but that's not what they want, so that's not what they're getting. But others say Donny RumsNamara is lying about that.In an unusual closed-door meeting on Capitol Hill last week, Virginia's John Warner, joined by Democratic Senators Carl Levin of Michigan and Mark Dayton of Minnesota, sat across the table from 10 military officers chosen for their experience on the battlefield rather than in the political arena. Warner rounded up the battalion commanders to get at what the military calls "ground truth"--the unvarnished story of what's going on in Iraq."We wanted the view from men who had been on the tip of the spear, and we got it," said John Ullyot, a Warner spokesman who declined to comment on what was said at the meeting but confirmed that some Capitol Hill staff members were also present. According to two sources with knowledge of the meeting, the Army and Marine officers were blunt. In contrast to the Pentagon's stock answer that there are enough troops on the ground in Iraq, the commanders said that they not only needed more manpower but also had repeatedly asked for it. Indeed, military sources told TIME that as recently as August 2005, a senior military official requested more troops but got turned down flat.
AFP, I have no idea where you think I am making such an argument (I wonder if you may still be suffering from a tryptophan high), but yeah, lots of respict'ble folk are still actually making that argument.It's APF. AFP is a news service.You're arguing that since you can observe a certain trend, therefore your pet preexisting event/force has a causative relationship with that trend. But as the news reports of the time tried to suggest, Sheenan was already reflecting the "mood of the country" in terms of trending away from long-term occupation of Iraq when she first appeared in Crawford. Her appearance was serendipitous and used as a hook for an anti-war movement that recognized not her greatness as a spokeswoman, but rather the clear and obvious weaknening of the Administration's policies in the eyes of the public. It's not Sheenan--a figure who has never had any pull with the American public--that has enabled people like Murtha to "speak out" (again).I personally don't care how many red-herring talking points you x&v over here (this isn't my blog you will be polluting with irrelevancies), but I'd appreciate not being sniped at for making a legitimate comment rather than regurgitating boilerplate.
Hey ADM, you oughta lighten up. All I said, I am saying Cindy was the leading edge and her simple statements and ethical behavior and obvious sacrifice gave her lots of credibility with a lot of people.I don't think she was sufficient, but Cindy Sheehan or someone like her was neccessary, and I want to give her the credit she is due for taking her brave stance.I am not saying she was the whole nine yards, I said it could have been someone else, and that I am praising her for volunteering to take point. That's called bravery and leadership.When you say, It's not Sheenan--a figure who has never had any pull with the American public I am reminded of polls that say that a majority of Americans though Bush should meet with her (again.). I am also reminded of Bush being forced to take a vacation from his vacation to go to Idaho for some fishing to get away from Cindy. Har Har.And when you say, I personally don't care how many red-herring talking points you x&v over here I hear ya, don't believe ya!
quxxo,You admire Cindy Sheehan for her imagined effect on policies you abhore. But most people think "brave" stands are not enough and do not exempt her from the consequences of her actions. Cindy Sheehan, just like Bush, will be judged in the context of her own history, her philosophies and the effects of her actions. I am still waiting for the anti-war movement to thoughtfully answer to the slaughter and suffering that resulted from the surrender in Vietnam. I doubt they care about the Iraqis now any more than they cared about the Vietnamese then.
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